Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
Sneaky Powerful is a podcast that explores the journey of healing from trauma. Through the perspective of Somatic Experiencing®, a naturalistic modality of trauma healing developed by Dr. Peter Levine, Ali Capurro and her guests explore the process and intricacies of reclaiming vitality. Within these artful conversations there are many threads, and specifically threads of hope, healing, and love.
Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
14 - Somatic Experiencing® and More than Nature with SEP Cindy Brooks
In this episode of Sneaky Powerful, Cindy Brooks shares with Ali and the audience, the ways she integrates SE™ into her work. Cindy provides information and stories of her work with the implementation of intentional time outside, art therapy, and equine therapy. Her wisdom, experience, and heart offer so much hope and opportunity for healing.
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Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Sneaky Powerful Podcast, a podcast dedicated to somatic experiencing. My name is Allie Capurro, and I'm a therapist in Boise, Idaho. I'm also an SE enthusiast. Before I introduce today's guest, I wanted to thank Those of you who have reached out to offer sponsorship to the podcast, it means a great deal to me. I love doing this podcast and it helps me keep the podcast ad free for as long as possible. So thank you. Remember, you can find me on Instagram at Sneaky Powerful and you can also find information about somatic experiencing at traumahealing.org. All right, so let's get to today's guest. So my friend and colleague, Cindy Brooks, is my guest today. And here's a little bit about her. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist, somatic experiencing practitioner, and also a certified addiction treatment counselor. She lives in Idlewild, California. Cindy's also the mother of four grown children and grandmothered eight. She brings SE, art, and her love for the more-than-natural world into group and private practice settings. Cindy has years of training and supervision in equine-assisted psychotherapy and combines somatic experiencing with the magic of the horse. She currently facilitates workshops and retreats in the mountains near Idlewild, California. She has completed a certificate in eco-psychology and has become a facilitator for the work that reconnects. Cindy believes it is important in these times to get outside, reconnect with the natural environment, reconnect with others and with ourselves. Her hope is to provide these types of collective healing opportunities through group gatherings, retreats, and gentle strolls. I really enjoyed my time with Cindy, and I think it will come through in the interview, and I look forward to sharing it with you. So let's get to it. Well, hello, Cindy Brooks. Welcome to the Sneaky Powerful Podcast. Hi, Allie. So good to be with you. And based on our pre-call, one of the things that struck me is I'm looking at this episode like, oh, it's like taking a walk with Cindy, what you were talking about with walking in the woods and doing therapy in the woods and in nature. And like this, this conversation feels like taking a walk with you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:I think it's so important.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So important. Yes. And we have plenty to talk about. So what I think I want to start with, if it's okay with you, is maybe if you could tell me the different ways you do somatic experiencing, like the ways you include it in all the things that you love. Okay. Yeah. There's lots. I know. That's what I'm like. Let's start there. Yeah. I mean, there's lots. I mean, I use it, obviously. every day in my own personal growth and my own personal way of being in the world, but I use it with art. I use it with horses. I use it with connecting with the more-than-human world, which would be the natural environment. But also, when I say that, I want to kind of make sure that we realize that we are nature as well. It's not like a separate entity. Yeah, right. You know, I do want to say, and I'm just backing up a little bit, how much I've appreciated you and these podcasts, too. I want to make sure to put that out there because I have just loved listening to them and loved hearing all of my people and people that I work with on a regular basis and their amazing stories. It's been really cool to listen to. I will thank you for that and I will echo what you said earlier about What a cool community we have. Very lucky. Very lucky. It's like these little warriors all over doing good and healing trauma. And how they've used Essie in so many different ways as well. I mean, I think I have been able to incorporate it in everything I do with my children, my grandchildren, my my world. It's amazing. Can you take us through an example, a recent example of that? Because I think one of the things that new practitioners are learning in SE and outside of SE, but what SE, how you incorporate it in your daily life or your personal growth or with your kids and grandkids? Is there anything that comes to mind? Yeah. A recent example actually would have been this past weekend. One of my daughters did come up to Idlewild, where I live, and we took some time together to take a walk. And she and I spent some time just examining, you know, all different things after it had rained and the creek was flowing and everything. Just to be able to get away from each of our busy lives, right? And as we're doing that, talking about what we notice in our bodies. what is it like to, you know, to be here with this creek or what is it like to be here? Notice this fallen tree. What do you think this tree story was? You know, and, and I do that. I mean, not that I was therapizing my child, but it was, it was, it was just more of, you know, I mean, I do that pretty much on a regular basis when I take walks with my dog as well. We just explore. And then I, I've been writing actually a few little poems about, And doing some drawings around something that I might see, you know, as I followed Ted into the forest or I followed Ted into the bed. And then I write little things about it. And then I do a picture. Do that after what's... Well, let's see. I want to slow it down because when you said... walking with your daughter by the creek, it's like my senses came online. Like I could hear the creek, a creek, not your creek maybe, but I could hear a creek and I could see, and I could hear what it sounds like when someone's stepping on dirt and pine needles and the feeling I pulled in my experience to your story. And I noticed that I felt one easy way to say I felt better. Yeah. I just felt kind of like, Kind of teary because of the nostalgia and all those things connected to it for me. But also just lighter, a little more expansive. And the smell. I mean, I can smell it. It's a damp because it had just rained like really, really hard. And so it was, you know, everything looked green. and really fresh and the damp soil and the pines. And I don't know, it was just, it was really, really special. And I love to share those things with my kids and also now my grandkids. where we're smelling different pine trees and the different smells they give us. I hear them saying that to other kids, and I'm like, yes. That's so cool. Yeah, smell this one. It's like butterscotch. There's one that smells like butterscotch. Yeah, Jeffrey Pines. Stop it. I don't think I've come across. I'm going to. We'll smell trees together when we're in Bozeman. Okay, cool. It's a date. Oh, I love that. So little things, I mean, I've always camped with them. And now that they have their own families, it's like lovely to see what they share with their kids. And then I, you know, I don't know. It's just, it's really special. So as far as SE and that goes, I mean, I often notice when I'm drawing, what colors they use, what does that color represent? When I'm walking, obviously looking at the forest and looking at, you know, difference. I just really... tap into the strength of a tree. I'm a big tree kind of gal. The stories the tree might be able to tell the weather, the storms it's been through, the different eclipses it's witnessed. We were talking about metaphors earlier a little bit in the pre-call, and that's kind of what comes to mind. Because I think about the stories, people's stories, human stories that we share and are inspired by and the resilience, but then a tree can be that exact same thing. The ancient stories that they hold,
SPEAKER_01:like
SPEAKER_00:I'm completely drawn to like the Oh yeah. And I'm just like, Oh wow. And they don't grow alone. Right. So part of too, that, you know, some, some of the stuff that we had talked about before where my work has been heading more out of kind of like individual one-on-one therapy. I mean, I still do it, but I really think in these times there's an important piece to gathering in the collective and getting together. Like when you go to a, a forest you'll see groves you know redwood trees actually only have about 12 feet of roots system and they grow like what i don't know hundreds and hundreds of feet tall and they hold hands with their fellow trees underground so their roots connect and intertwine and part of why i want to do more group work i just think it's essential right now i mean i think people need to get back outside, get back into circling up, being together, be back, back and forth, you know, with each other, like sharing their stories, storytelling. Because I think we've been, especially through these last couple of years, a little bit too isolated. But I think it's where the work needs to go. I am kind of so moved. I'm speechless because, and I laugh because I think you just put a lot of personal things together for me in what you just said. And the image of trees holding hands underground, that just made me go, that's right. That's why I'm craving this connectedness so desperately. Why I created this podcast to feel connected to this amazing community. Stronger together. just really feeling that. I mean, I never realized how much I missed the in-person trainings until I got back to them, right? And just like, oh my gosh, these are my people, right? This is like, I don't know. I was just really excited to be back in group and, you know, and I'm not a real extrovert-y type gal, believe it or not. I like my little alone time and stuff. But I really, I mean, that's a big part of my SE story as well. I mean, I used to be a lot more alone and lonely and wanting to be separate right and it was really hard for me to socially engage yeah right you know without alcohol and there's a little pass the salt yeah yeah throw that in i can do that now What are some of the ways for those of you out there listening that know that experience? Well, I'm way more fun with alcohol. Yeah, well, I'm way more fun without it. Let me tell you. And often people think I have it because I'm so much fun. But I just, yeah, I mean, I dance and karaoke up a storm. No, not really. But I just feel like there's a lot of things that I felt like I wouldn't be able to do. But I do them all quite well now. So... Let's take out the karaoke part, okay? I actually got stuck there. I was like, another thing you can do? No, I really don't. I don't. I don't. I just, I did perform quite a routine, so I will survive at one point in the month. But that's okay.
UNKNOWN:Don't.
SPEAKER_00:I'm like, could you just do one chorus? But it's also so funny to see like at the SE trainings, like, I mean, dancing, right? When we dance, I would have never danced in a million years before. And I just so can't wait till that comes on and I can just dance and, you know, and it's always fascinating. You know, I coordinate a bunch of different trainings and when they play music and not all of the teachers dance, play music. But when there is music played, you can see in the different kind of modules or groups, like the one I just did in Dana Point, no one stood up to dance. I was like dancing by myself with Ariel in the front of the room. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:that's interesting
SPEAKER_00:yeah it just depends but then by intermediate they'll probably dance maybe that's se helps you live like you're not sober and be sober if that makes sense or you know dance like no one's watching and you don't care right or you could say it that way yeah yeah But I do think that, you know, I miss that. I love that community. And I just think I'm so lucky to be a part of it and to see how that supporting connection has, I mean, it's saved my life. Yeah, I agree. And I would say the same thing. I would say it's helped me tap into my own resilience and my own capacity to... kind of work with the trauma vortex and know that there is a counter vortex that that's not all trauma vortex, which is how it feels. And be authentic and not, and be accepted and still cared for. Yeah. Yeah. The, the, um, what do you call that? The, um, Not intention, but the way I am thinking of Abby in particular, Abby Blakeslee, for those of you listening, but that's where Cindy and I met was at Abby Blakeslee's trainings in Bozeman. But there's just no space for judgment or meanness there. Which doesn't mean that there's not a space for conflict or truth, but it's like we can have all that life stuff come up, but it's within a really contained environment of safety. Yeah. So which allows for dancing to happen. And it's also how I feel in, you know, in the forest or in the, you know, outdoor. I mean, just the idea of being... held there as well. I think a lot of people, I'm in Idaho and I know a lot of people go to the forest for different reasons, but I like that idea that there's this undercurrent of being held by it. And you don't have to be like necessarily, so I don't want to make it seem like that everybody has to be like living in a national park or something, you know, because there's always something, you know, that we can tap into. That, you know, just even watching like an anthill, you know, or, you know, I mean, I remember during the pandemic and when we were really like kind of in the quarantine part of it and not able to go anywhere and just watching squirrels outside my window and going, they have no idea what's going on. Like they're carrying on. They don't know. They're not affected by it. No. And we didn't know either. And how can they be so happy? Why can't I be more like a squirrel? That's a whole side story. We do have some squirrels, a lot of squirrels. Have you seen a white squirrel? I have. I have. Are they called albino squirrels? We named ours Gandalf. Oh, really? Does it come around a lot? Not so much. I don't know what happens.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Miss you, Gandalf. But yeah, it was fun. It was like a sighting. Like we'd be like, the family would say, there was a Gandalf sighting today. And it's interesting too, what I think is also fascinating about that, just like that. Like I would probably have looked up the albino squirrel. I probably would have seen what message that particular, what is that about? I mean, I had a bat in my house the other day. And it was, yeah, like a full, I thought it was a bird. It happened a year ago. Yeah. Tell me more. And so, well, I just like, what is it? And it's interesting because I, you know, I checked into like all of a sudden bats were like showing up. Like my daughter sent me another one of my daughters was at the wild animal park in San Diego. And there's like one of those things where you put your head through, you know, the creature, you know, she was a bat. So she sends me this picture of her in this bat thing. And then later on that week, I'm like sitting on a zoom call and I think it's a bird. So I'm okay. Okay. A bird got in the house. Oh, you know, that opposite the things like bombing, like diving down. It's like, Oh my gosh. So then my husband has a broom and we're having, I'm trying to keep this all together, keep the pets in the house. We're trying to get the bat out the front door without the cats leaving. And it was pandemonium. But what I found out about it, what was funny is, or the interesting part is that I, why are these bats showing up? So I'll look it up or I'll try to, I have a, you know, a couple just out of curiosity and what they symbolize and what they represent.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's kind of like, you know, seeing in the dark, right? It's like this transformation. It's like birth. They hang upside down to give birth. Like there's this whole, yeah. And then, yeah, they have to catch. It's very interesting. Like the whole thing around them. I'm glad you're talking about this because there's so many reasons, but this is that magical part of Essie that is kind of, I don't know if it's talked about very openly, but I find it all the time. So, There's been a lot of what I will say mama energy in our conversation today during the pre-call and even thinking of Agnes, who I was thinking maybe we could dedicate this podcast to. Oh, Agnes Lillian, yeah. Yeah. My maternal grandmother that was... Yeah, I'm learning more about. Learning more about, yes. But bats, so years ago when I was living in Gardnerville, Nevada, I was probably like eighth grade or ninth grade, okay? We had an older house and my mom was upstairs and she's no longer with us. And she was upstairs and she was so filled with pandemonium that she's up there and I can hear her like, ah, ah, ah. And it was- You weren't even fazed right now. Kind of. What's up with mom? Anyway, there was a bat in the house. So then last year I made a huge transition and it was very emotional and family-based. And the first day of the transition, so it was like maybe August, late August, a bat flew in the house. Rebirth, rebirth.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love that you brought that up. Yeah. So those kinds of things, like when I do take people for walks, I've had people and we'll talk to a bit about the horse stuff too, at some point, but when I walk with them or I've been, you know, I don't do this right away. Like I don't take a new client out into the forest. I've learned that that's not always, you know, something that somebody might want to do, but when I do do it and we're sitting out there and something shows up, or I had one client that I was sitting, And we were just talking and this giant tree branch just fell like a bit away from us. It wasn't, you know, dangerous of any kind, but it made this whole like crunching kind of, you know, falling noise. And then we just worked with it through the body and with that, you know, tree limb, what do you need to let go of? And it just kind of like happened. Right. And that those kinds of things seem to show up. you know, a bird landing on a fence post. And, you know, as you see that bird, what might that bird want to say, or what would you, you know, and the same with the horses. I mean, the horses, as you see this horse, you know, and you're in the ring with this horse, what do you notice in your body? We'll do usually a body scan or something prior to people entering the ring with the horse. And then as they turn around, we check and track again and see what's different. Oh, I wish I were doing that right now because I was thinking about that. What would I say? I can feel a little activation with like in my chest neck area with talking about the bat, thinking about my mom, thinking about the meaning of like I remember doing a personal session online and the. practitioner said oh a hawk just flew by in her view and I and do hawks mean anything to you and they have a huge meaning to me so let's jump to the horse stuff for just because that is so fun I love the horse stuff as I've said I have horses we have four horses and what's something like I was thinking if I stepped into the ring and I had some activation you would ask me to do a body scan then what would we maybe do next and probably would have a little body scan with you looking at me with the horse behind you. Okay. The horse, the rings behind you. Okay. You're not in there yet. Yeah. And we generally do some work where we, you know, have a little tracking body scan and then I have you turn and face the horse, not in the ring yet, and then track again and see what's different. Notice what's different, what comes up. Then there's also just like naming it, right? As we talked a little bit about too prior is horses just want to know. If you're pretending that you're something that you're not, for instance, if you say, I feel anxious in my belly or I feel this ball of anxiety in my chest, right?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:They will connect with you more than if you pretend it's not bad. So they're kind of really good at reading emotional shifts in people's bodies. So I use them as co-therapists. You know, we've used them as co-therapists. I'm fortunate enough to work with another SEP at her ranch, Nancy Wade's ranch. I'm lucky to work with her and use her herd and do what we do with people, come up and do the retreats and stuff that I do down there.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so you go into the ring then and you just kind of like, you know, you can go in with a question. You can, if there's some, something that you want to get maybe a little bit more clarity, you can see how you develop a relationship with,
SPEAKER_01:Oh man. Have
SPEAKER_00:you seen some cool attachment stuff? Oh, totally. Oh man. Like, like, you know, the kind of, even like what you were sharing, like, I just wanted them to be my friend, you know? Yeah. Right. Why aren't they coming up here? She's a little desperate. So we're going to stay away and give her some space. And I've seen people chase them. Right. And they just keep running away. And then that's interesting. Do you chase, are you like yearning, longing for connection? Right. And then we talk about that. Right. But they're, they're really good at, you know, authenticity. The idea of like, is this person showing up like they feel inside? And if they, they don't really want much to do with people who insides don't match their outsides.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it's not like they're going to be mean to them, but they're not, they don't connect as well.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So often when that's happening, I might say something to, to the person that's in there. Like, tell me one truth about you. One thing that you believe to be true. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:I love that.
SPEAKER_00:And it could be anything. It could be good or bad. Yeah. But when they name that, the horse usually comes over. Oh my gosh. It's pretty powerful stuff. And I, and I, so the SC piece with that is like, we, we definitely have them pay attention to what's going on in their body. Are they breathing? Are, what do you notice? Like as you get ready to go in and maybe even just say the words, like, tell me what I need to know or show me what I need to know to the horse. You don't have to say it out loud. You just feel it in your body. Yeah. I mean, there's not words to express the power behind that. Like, it's just so magical and beautiful. It's a lot of people. We work with a lot of... Well, there was a time prior to changes in insurance stuff, we worked with a lot of people in early recovery. They would come up from different treatment centers in the desert and pre-pandemic and so forth. And, you know, a lot of them... really didn't know what they were feeling, but we could use the horse as kind of a mirror and we could tell, you know, and help them then to tap into more what the sensation was. Is there a way to break that down at all? Because I think that it's less of an experience for me now, but it used to be such a common experience where I wouldn't know how I felt about something until days later or it would, and what's the, actually, I just had this happen. What was it? I can't think of what it was, but where I was like, oh, I didn't know that was affecting me so much. When you have like a 1200 pound animal in front of you, like there's stuff you're going to notice. I mean, it's fairly, most of the time, I think something happens, you know what I mean? Like then you can kind of use that people just don't stand there and feel nothing. I mean, most of the time, and even if it's just like, I I'm scared or how do you know you're scared? What do you notice in your, you know, that like, okay, where do you notice the scared? Right. I love that. It makes sense. Yeah. Right. Well, I feel, you know, so it brings up the, you know, the kind of like a hint. Right. Right. Yeah. Like yearning. Like if, if, well, I want the horse to come over to me and he's not, or she's not. Right. How does that feel to want that horse? What is it about that connection that you're yearning for? Where do you notice that in your body? I say this in every podcast, but I'm like, oh, crap. I always reach a point where I'm like, and now I'm getting therapy. And now you're coming to work in Idlewild. Well, I mean, I would go out with your horses and just watch them. Watch how they negotiate boundaries. Watch how they... You know, they figure it out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It was interesting too. And when we were sent to quarantine, I felt like there was an element of horses that are made to live in stalls. Like I related that to, you know, horses don't want to be in like separate little stalls in a barn. They want to be out with their people out in a herd. We are heard like as well. We want to be out with our people for the most part, not at home. stuck inside. And so that anxiety that we felt, right? I mean, I feel like many horses are more high strung that live in barns because they're in this little thing, right? They want to be with their people.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Oh my
SPEAKER_00:gosh. They want to be out there. And most of the time barns, and this is nothing against anybody who keeps their horse in a barn because sometimes you need to, but it's sometimes out of convenience for barn owner or the you know to keep their horse from maybe not getting in a little spat or like that but actually they do really really value and are much more happy just like humans in a herd environment oh man i'm thinking of when we brought our youngest horse abby in we have gelding and I don't remember who we all had at the time, but right now we have a gelding and three mares, and we brought Abby in, and she was so relentless. She had bite marks all over her because she's like, oh, no, no. I'm going to be part of this group. Exactly. Go ahead. I am determined. Totally. Totally. Yeah. We actually do the yarn boundary exercise. Yeah. With the horses, we draw the boundary in the dirt with a stick. Okay. And then when the horse approaches that space, they have to get big and say, this is my space. You may not enter without my permission. And then they have this moment of empowerment. Yeah. It's pretty cool stuff. Some people have a harder time doing it, but when they can stop that horse, do they feel like wonderful or what?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:yeah so it's pretty cool and and seeing we do a variety of a variety of the different things that we do in the su trainings with forces that's so cool yeah you and nancy the duo magical duo that i'm going to be visiting sometime yeah yeah we'd love to do more so come visit yeah And where is she? Where's her ranch? It's about 15 minutes from me, just down. There's a place called Garner Valley, which is like, there's more horse ranches down there. It's just about, I go down the hill or down, we call this the hill, rather than if I go down the hill to the ranches. Love it. Let's see. I was trying to decide which awesome thing that you do. Well, okay. So I'm looking at ecopsychologists, which is amazing. You know, I did a program through the Holos Institute affiliated with CIS in San Francisco. And I, so I went up to Boonville, Northern California, outside of Ukiah on the way to Humboldt. So it's about two and a half hours north of San Francisco. But before that, we did a bunch of webinars. We did a lot of things online because it started in 2019. And then we couldn't do the in-person stuff until later in 2021 because we couldn't gather. But we learned a variety of things. And I have a lot of... I think there's an underlying unease, especially with a lot of my clients. Not necessarily all of them because some people are completely oblivious, but then I... fill them in about the importance of protecting our, our natural, you know, I mean, the environment, some people just go about life and don't necessarily notice. I mean, I don't know how that happens, but there are some, but I think it's, my work is, is about to get people more informed or trauma informed about our natural world. And I feel a lot of people have an element of underlying climate anxiety. Yeah, right. And so trading in this area, I also think it's important by doing these groups and things that I do and want to do more of outside is to have a mutual respect for us within this. I mean, there was a time when... It was all one. I mean, you know, there was a time when, you know, there became this division somewhere along the idea of, I think it's important to acknowledge who lived here prior to us. I'm in mountain Korea land. I think it's important for us to recognize the legends and histories that go with the space in which you reside. There's an element of terror psychology that came into that program around what are you drawn to? What does your spirit... I love to swim, but there is something about this granite mountain... kind of thing. I'm way more drawn to woods and forests and maybe it's from my childhood. I'm not sure, but yeah. Right. But being curious, at least. Yeah. There's something just noticing what it is that where you would love to reside or, you know, what is it like when I lived in San Clemente at the beach for a long time, close to 20 years. And I, there's something about when I visit there and I'm driving back here and it's like this gravitational pull to the mountain, you know, it's like, I can't wait to get back. I love that question. I love what you're, yeah, what you're drawn to and is it desert grasses? What is it? And just to notice why, and what is it about that? What is the, you know, and so when, when I did this program, it was, it was about helping people with some of the anxiety, this underlying unrest. I, you know, from an ecological perspective, the element of belonging and, from an ecological perspective. In other words, we are part of all of this and to take responsibility for whatever we can do. It may seem small, but it's way better than just ignoring what's going on, right? And how some ways with, I don't know, capitalism, what's going on in our world today, that we can deny that it's happening just in... exploited as a result because we're not part of that oh that's just that
SPEAKER_01:right
SPEAKER_00:right but i look at my my children and my grandchildren and their children and i don't know what it will be like to them right so i want to do what i can to get people a little bit more aware and out there i appreciate i mean we know like the names of many many logos um Right? You know, if you see a swish, you know it's Nike. If you see this, but do you know the name of the plants that are growing in your backyard? Do you know the names of the trees that are residing together and how they coexist and why the certain plant is next to the nettle plant to soothe? You know, I mean, they all... What's that thing? When I heard that thing, like the... Oh, you know what it is. But basically, yeah, the... healing component is right next to usually grows right next door yes freaking nuts no i'm trying to think oh mallow mallow almost always grows next to nettles because if he gets a stinging nettle then the mallow plant has the kind of like stuff to suit that but But I try to, I have this little app on my phone called Seek, which is a naturalist app. So when I'm walking and I am exploring, usually with my dog, I will see something and I'll try to identify it, right? I want to know, or I'll look it up when I get home. I'll take a picture and I'll draw it and look it up. I love that you're an artist too. It's one of the many surprises where I'm like, wait, that too? And I have to just tell you that when you say that, I have this, am I? But that's just old stuff. But I feel like there's, I think we're all creative beings. And I think that there's many people that say, oh, you should sell that stuff. Or why don't you sign your work? And I just always feel like kind of, I don't know what that is, but maybe one day I'll have a show. I will be there. I will be there for that show. I love it. So I do love looking at things. It's like a kid laying on the ground, right? And noticing the clouds and seeing what you see. Yeah, I remember doing that so well. So I like looking at bark on a tree and saying, wow, there's a horse head. Oh, there's like, I don't know. just things in the environment that I see that maybe not everybody else sees, but I can like draw it or paint it and then they can figure out what they see themselves. Yeah, right. What story that might have to tell. And it's fun for them. I think it's, now that I'm talking about it, I'm almost thinking of how it looks on them. Like it looks empowering to them to know about the world around them. Absolutely. Yeah. I hadn't thought of it that way. I like that a lot. And I think it's important for them. to try to do our part in whatever way. And even that simple thing of them learning the connection and what grows by what and what is what is something that we can do to be more familiar with. And it doesn't necessarily have to be I don't know. I just don't want it to be that people feel like they have to go. You can look out your window wherever you are. In a city, you could be anywhere. You can sit at a stoplight and you can choose to get really annoyed at all the cars that are around you. Or you could look at that tree that's by you or the cloud that might be overhead. I actually want to highlight what you just said because I think that's an example of SE's strength. I don't want to use the word. Orientation magic. Yes. And the resiliency of the choice there. I can get totally annoyed at the traffic that I'm sitting
SPEAKER_01:in
SPEAKER_00:or I can take a minute and look at the sky or listen to the thunder or look around. What's growing around me. There's always something. You can even look at the person in the car next to you and be interested in their glasses. You know what I'm saying? But if you sit there long enough and get annoyed with the traffic, you'll probably get annoyed with the traffic. And write that estimation of activation Yeah, I mean, what we focus on intensifies. So I think a big part of that is just noticing there is that counter, you know, there's resources everywhere. Resources, that's right. The ability to, you know, just notice. I mean, I think that too, in my own recovery from, I'm a recovering alcoholic, and I think that in my own recovery, to be able to recognize that there is that, through SC and the work that I do with people in early recovery and the people that come taking them camping, having them realize that innately they have the capacity to heal and that they don't need this external thing. eating the substance or the, you know, whatever to regulate the nervous system. They can do that anything on their own. And then there's like, Whoa, really? Oh, they'll have this, they'll gain evidence of different things they can actually get through. Right. Yeah. And not have to pick up the drink or pick up the drug or whatever it might be. And then each time that happens, um, They have more and more evidence or proof that she's, you know, that not that I'm right, but that my body's right. I think you're right to put that out there. I don't know. Well, you know, I think one of the things of being a sober woman that I have totally, I love feeling everything because I get to. Good, bad, but you know, I get to, and I think it's beautiful. Not always rosy, but who came up with the idea that we can't be uncomfortable every now and then? Like, you know, I mean, it's, it's, I don't know about you, but most of the things that I've learned the most have been when I've not been very comfortable. That's where the true growth has been. Yeah. The pain. I'm very motivated by pain. Everything's rosy. I mean, we don't do anything. We're like a plant. I'm just happy here in the sunshine, right? I mean, it's not...
SPEAKER_01:Soak it up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, it's not like you, there's not some sort of, I mean, there's a reason we feel anxiety. I mean, overwhelming anxiety isn't pleasant, but it's usually telling you something. I mean, and the trauma that we work with to be able to allow that to renegotiate, you know, to move through, to renegotiate, to set, you know, the cycles, it just really, yeah. Allows one to see, wow, I just got through that and I'm okay. I didn't need to go have three bottles of wine. And I can hold space. I just really noticed through Essie the capacity that has to hold. I would no way in a million years imagine myself coordinating a training. Or standing up in front of a crowd. Or, oh, good Lord, I'd have a rash up my neck and I'd be freaking out. Your body's like... Sometimes I sit down after I talk and go, did I just do that? Like how, you know, I don't know. It's just, I mean, if you could have seen me then. That is, I was reflecting on one of my own things, like that same feeling, if you could have seen me then. And the... Maybe reflecting on the capacity that has grown in me and why SE has saved my life. Like 80 children when I show up at that thing, you know? getting them all situated, you know, and I enjoy it immensely. It's, it's, you know, just going to coordinate and assist and shepherding, seeing people go from beginning one to the end of their graduation and knowing those people are going to go out and spread this. I mean, it's so, so wonderful. So hopeful. Yeah. Well, so that's actually a fun thing that I learned about you even more so today is just all the work you do in the SE community. I'm looking, I'm remembering from my notes. Gosh, so you got, you became an SEP around 2013, is that right? 14, yeah. And then what next? What happened next? You started assisting? I mean, I've assisted a lot in a variety of places, but then I was asked to coordinate And then I started coordinating just, I think, just about everybody. Not everybody. I mean, I've coordinated with Abby a lot. I've coordinated with Joshua and Burns. Do I need to say their last names? Nope. Okay. I have coordinated also with Lael and Russell. And I have coordinated with, let's see, Raja. Oh, that's right. Are you coordinating for Masheed? And I am on REL. I just did last weekend. Yes. And this coming weekend in San Diego, I have the honor and pleasure of coordinating with dear Masheed. And I can't wait to be a part of her new training and new beginnings for her. And she was in the cohort before mine.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:In San Diego. So she was assisting, actually, but couldn't provide sessions. And she was assisting in my training. And I remember her with her little notepad, diligently writing down everything. She had a little iPad there. Anyway, so yeah, no, I'm very excited to support her on this journey. I wish I could be there. Yeah. And so, and I don't know, a lot of different people and it's a pleasure to spread the word and to get people to learn this work because I think it's life changing. And I think it's my part too in changing the world. I agree. That's, that's my feeling about this work as well is I've seen the transformation in myself. I've seen it in colleagues and friends and it creates a lot of hope and This is so simple, but one of the things I hear so frequently is, basically, when I'm regulated or more regulated, I'm calmer. I'm not so reactionary. I'm not yelling at whoever, kids, people, traffic. And it just is such a simple and lovely way to contribute to a better world. Yes. And also to notice what have the tools. or have the evidence, as I said before, to recognize when that is happening, that you need to do you know, whatever works for you as, you know, this is, this is like, I have the skills to regulate this, but I don't need to continue screaming at my neighbor, you know? Remembering there's a choice. I can. Yeah, I can. I can get really annoyed at this, this or that, but you know, I do have the gift today through Essie and, and the work that I, you know, totally believe in to be more regulated in this thing. Like there have been many things that I've been through in the past few years that I would have not reacted quite the same way if I did not have this gift, these gifts and practice them. And it's always fascinating to me to see a new client whether it be, you know, online or outside or with the horses or doing it. I do experiential art groups as well. And it's always like that doesn't know. I mean, they haven't been through, you know, and I am stealthily sneaky powerfully. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Floating Essie into the, whether they know it or not. And, you know, even like the walk with my daughter, I mean, she's familiar with Essie because she knows what I do, but like with my grandkids and I, you know, I might, and I remember Abby talking about this, you know, just like when I sit with them and watch a show, I might just have my hand on their belly and I can feel them just soften. And I sewed them little hearts when they were younger and, And when they'd fall asleep at night, they'd put them on their chest and then they wouldn't feel themselves kind of resting. And then they would get more body awareness to what it feels like to rest and digest. You know, I just feel these little flaxseed hearts and you can buy them too, but I just said them. Yeah. A little bit of weight and they put it on their chest before they fall asleep. And that gives them kind of like a little noticing their system settling right before they would drift off. And I would say, well, this is grandma's heart. And they go, it's not really your heart, grandma. And I'm like, no, they're so literal. But yeah, and they love those things. I mean, I made one for one of my more active grandsons, I should say. And then they all wanted them. Wow. That was like a little golden nugget you just gave us. Oh, I think other people have that nugget, but I'm glad to share it. I love it. Yeah. I mean, I do it with myself. I think another part of why I love the work outdoors and so forth, as I said, is that what happens to us when we become older and responsible that we can't just have... the little heart, like the grandchild or the, or go out and like, look at the forest and awe and wonder like you did when you were a kid and just go like, Oh, look at that tree, you know? Or, I mean, I think, um, And I just don't really think we need to grow up quite that much. Well, I think what I was thinking, where I thought you were headed, there was some language. I thought you were headed to say that there's consequences to that when we stop doing that. I agree with that as well. You don't. That wonder and awe is just so, I think, important in just seeing things and witnessing things like you're seeing them for the very first time. Right. So life-giving, so filled with vitality. Yep. That really connects with me. Oh, I know. I was thinking when you said when you go for walks with your dog, Ted, and you let him lead and you just let him off leash because you have places you can do that. You can do that. And you get to follow and just go where he goes. When you were telling me that earlier in our pre-call, it just was like, oh, that's play. That's play right there. Oh, it's just like we're little explorers. We're like out there and we have our little supplies. I have my little art stuff in case you know and it was interesting the other day I followed him into this like place I have never been and that's usually the case like he'll just go off some beaten path and I'll just follow him and I do have this particular tree that is now one of my I mean there's many but this particular tree that is growing like through bolt, like it's, it's roots are engulfing boulders and it's like coming out as this giant oak tree and imagining it as a little acorn. Right. And, and what it went through, like how it landed there, how it, like what it went through to like fight through the, you know, the boulder and come out on the other side. Cause it's so funny. Like I've heard, you know, I've heard people say, well, rocks don't, trees don't grow out of rocks. Well, No, but their boulders were there. The rocks were there first. And then there was this thing, right? You know, so that happens around here a lot. You'll see this tree that looks like it's growing out of the rock, but really it's, you know, but anyway, so I'm there and I decide, okay, I'm going to sit down and do a quick little watercolor of this. And I go back and visit this tree. I haven't been for a while because it's been, it has been warm and it's kind of a little bit out there. And it's probably a little buggy and stuff right now. But now it's raining, so I might get to go visit. But I sat down to kind of do this little quick watercolor. And there's this entire vast area that the dog could be frolicking and having a grand old time. And he's sitting right next to me, just looking at the tree with me like he was ready to do his own thing. Until he noticed the water and he started drinking my watercolor water. Anyway, I was like, Ted, you can go play. Do whatever you want. He's like, right there. He's my little exploration buddy. Just what he sees. I look like like at what he notices and finds and I notice when he perks up right and he's orienting to something right and I'm wondering okay should I really have like bear spray right now you know or whatever is there a mountain lion in my midst you know and so anyway but yeah that's fun I like that we do that with the horses because they kind of can go around our house with the way the pastures oh you're so lucky it's pretty lucky pretty critical and so if you if I look out and they're like all all perked up looking. Right. Trying to think of what the most exciting thing we've seen, probably just a deer, which I guess is good. I don't really want to see like a mountain lion. No, but you know, and, and they would, you know, it's interesting because I've seen the horses down where I work that, you know, and there's stories that have been shared from Nancy as well about the horses actually know. It's like, say some, like a wolf or coyotes or whatever come, they know if they've just eaten.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. So they sometimes just, they'll just be stuttering by and they don't even perk up or move because they know that they're not hungry. They might perk and look at them and make that decision, right? They'll orient to the danger, but then they assess... And they may run to the other side if they think they're hungry. But they also might just like, oh, they just ate. So we're good. But watching, you know, animals like orient different things is always so, you know, my cats, my dog, my dog, though he's a... And horses, the difference between like horses and... Dogs, for instance, and why, I mean, some people have done wolf therapy or there's that, is that dogs and wolves and those kinds of things are predators. Right, right, right. Okay. But that horses are prey animals. They are preyed upon in the wild. So they're, they are more attuned. They orient more than a wolf or a dog because they're predators. Like a horse is set up to see almost 360 degrees around them with their eyes on the side of their head. So you'll know a predator, like think of predators versus prey. Our eyes are straightforward. Yeah, right. Okay. Squirrels are on the side. Bunnies are on the side. Good little tip there that I... Every day is a school day, Allie. I am very
SPEAKER_01:smart
SPEAKER_00:right now. But that's super cool. That's super cool. So you can, you know... So that's why they're more sensitive to emotional shifts and more able to notice. That's why they make good co-therapists is because they sense better. I mean, it's great. Dogs are fantastic, but they don't have that same prey perspective. Yeah, right. That's interesting because I think of different humans that have... maybe experience life as prey and humans who have maybe experienced life more as predator and just the difference in sensing and intuition and hypervigilance, whatever it might be. Not trying to generalize or stereotype, but just my own anecdotal experiences. I'm like, oh, yeah. As you said, you really felt that you've done this podcast to get some more therapy. Okay. So thank you. You're welcome. I have gained a lot. Secretively. Secretively, yes. But I have too, listening to them. I mean, I think it's fantastic. I mean, I just am so glad you're doing this. It's like so, I don't know, it's so fun. I think that too, back to the animal thing, is just to be able to, you know, like even when I was thinking there really quick about like even some of the earlier work of Peter Levine studying animals in the wild, right? And the herd of gazelle, right? The and all the videos and clips that we often watch
SPEAKER_01:right
SPEAKER_00:it's it's with that the predator the prey what you know right how they which ones orient better which ones are just almost using you know another predator to get the prey you know what i
SPEAKER_01:mean like
SPEAKER_00:it's i don't know that's how it all started the hyena's waiting for when the yeah yeah video but yeah the cheetah captures yeah anyway It is. It's such good stuff. I have no idea how much time because we did a pre-call and I'm like, I have no idea where we are on time. I'm just watching it rain and it's a beautiful thing. And I know that, you know, I also think for people to actually look back, you know, just something that I've been really interested in lately is some of my ancestral things. Because I was sharing with you earlier the idea that not necessarily knowing much information about my ancestors and really kind of becoming, you know, there's a lot of practices that we, you know, look at or do sometimes that have to do with Like what's in there? What has been passed down to me? What are these, you know, even from like, why am I drawn to the granite? Right. Like, did I have a mountain climber in my history? You know, and my grandparents were all deceased before I was born. And so, um, And my parents weren't real famous for storytelling. So, um, but again, I don't know if fairness for story or keeping secrets or not. Yes. They were famous for that. Yeah. But then I also, you know, knowing what I know now, my father was a world war two veteran. I am fairly positive. There was some PTSD in his story, but never talked about it.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So I'd love to talk to him now. I would absolutely love to have a conversation with him from that perspective. But I've been looking more into kind of some of that and learning more about some of my ancestors because I hope to be able to share some of that information with my own kids and grandkids because there is none. Yeah, yeah. So I appreciate Agnes Lillian was my maternal grandmother and some dedication, just a little shout out for her earlier. So yeah, I have a feeling she had something to do with the outdoors and something to do with art. Because there's no one else that I know of. And I think she was the rebel in the group. I hope you find a little trail of information. Well, she died in 1931. So it's taken a little bit of research. But yeah. So anyway. But I think it's cool to learn some of that. And I think it's important. And I think Essie has also led me to find or look for that. Along with the eco-psychology piece. Because there's that. land what land do I live on what land am I drawn to that's also I believe part of my ancestry all kind of connected I like that my dad really used that growing up because his my paternal side's very Norwegian and so he used that like you're a Viking you can do this oh I got that too I got that from Denmark or my I found Frederica Hansen was my great grandmother yeah On my father's side. Yeah. Yeah, the Viking. Yes, exactly. We heal quickly. Yeah, but it is, it's fun and it helps me, helps know, gosh, what's that show? Let me finish that thought. It helps really connect with stories of resilience and survival and Even that show, gosh, what's that show with, it's on, I think PBS, but where he does the, I'll have to look it up and send it to you. People out there are like yelling it and saying, Ali, it's this. But basically he does your ancestry for you. Oh, it does? He picks celebrities usually and kind of goes. Oh, I've never seen her. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'll find it and I'll text you because I think you might actually like it. It's pretty, you know, and I, and I just, this, you know, I think it's, I don't know. I just want to know. There's just questions I have. And I think that, that it's, it's, I don't know. And I have no one to ask. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, my parents, grandparents are all gone. I have, but it's in there. You know what I mean? Like that's, that lands. Yeah. Yeah. My, my mom's dad was adopted and in the stories are, you know, that they were Irish immigrants, but yeah, there's not, there's not a lot of information and I'm very curious as well. I get that. Yeah. And I, and I think that, Whenever I've been at different SE trainings and we've done some work around thinking of a competent protector or calling upon... I don't know who to call upon. And sometimes that can be sad, right? And it's like learning more information. It's usually a forest creature or it's usually a tree or because I don't necessarily know that much about that. And my mom... you know, didn't really share much information. She lived, you know, she just died in 2013 during my ASU training.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:But I just wish I had known more to talk to my dad before he died. And even, I mean, my mom, fortunately I was able to do some, so there's still more. What I do, and so I'll send you the bio piece, but I'll also, um, I would love to just also add that if there are people interested, not just listeners, but SCPs as well, I hope to do like almost seasonal kind of gatherings up here so that we can examine kind of what season you're in, which you can like kind of, and you could do all four or you could do just pick one and see how it goes. But I'm in the process of locating a pretty spectacular place to do these that we could be outside and do some fun stuff. And I don't know. I just think that, I really want my, my work that I have left on this time is to get people back into the wonder and awe of our more than human environment. Yeah. And together. Yeah. In a group, like a group of people.
UNKNOWN:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Like as much as I am loving talking to you on zoom right now, like when I see you, it's a completely October baby. Here we go. I've got my Airbnb walking distance. I'm excited. Yeah. Is that is, so that's in development. What? The gatherings. Okay.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And actually, you know, it's like, I want to do a little, like why gather and writing a little thing around that. But I, but yes, it's in, it's in the process and coming up with different things that, you know, we had a fire here about four years ago and, you know, just even like right now with this water is, I don't even know that I've seen this much rain in the last three days since I've lived here. It's usually pretty hot and dry and, It's a bit hopeful and exciting to me right now. But when there was the fire, I can remember going out to some of the scarred areas and then seeing the regrowth. And there was something really quite spectacular about that as well. And then learning that certain bushes... didn't ever grow unless there was a fire like they grew from the roots of the burnt manzanita they grew from the you know and the spores that get let go from the pine trees and that you know anyway so i had a you know summer hot dry might have the theme what are you thirsting for um I can tell you. Yeah, I like it. I have an answer. I've actually got, I got a lot, you know, what it fall, what do you mean? Like, I mean, it seems cliche, but like, I think also with like winter, this like cozying up to a fireplace and just like, you know, what's dormant, what's hibernating, what do you need, you know, what do you need to go in with? This is all obviously from an SEA perspective. Right, right, right. Yeah. From the wisest part of myself that I have access. Way wiser than my head. Don't go there. It's a bad neighborhood. Who says Anne Lamont? I don't go into my mind after 10 o'clock at night. It's like going into a bad neighborhood. Right. Yeah. Well, they say that in AA, too. It's like, don't go there alone. It's a bad neighborhood. Don't go there alone. Because, boy, I can make up stuff. Oh, man. It's not even happening.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I am so delighted and I'm so inspired because the first thing I'm going to do when we're done is I'm going to go outside. Even though it's literally 102, I'm going outside. Again, I so appreciate being here. And I know that there was a time that we had scheduled before and then I was like, what am I doing? I had like two trainings in a row and then I had scheduled... You are busy. Yes. So this is a lovely day that I could just sit and chat with you without worrying about anything else going on. Good. I'm so glad. I'm so grateful. And it's such a pleasure. That's another reason I do it. Therapy, to get my own therapy and to spend time with the people that I love so much that are far away, but my community, my holding hands under the earth. That's right. All around the world. Right. You know, and I feel like, You know, and it was interesting. There was, I just have to say too, that there is this, and I've said this to you before, there is something that drew me to you. Okay. And so maybe when you said before that we may be the same person, it could be true. It could be true. From the get-go. I remember you being a fun woman gal. Oh, I know another thing. Have you heard the song Crowded Table by the High Women? No. It's Ruby Carlisle is in the group, and she's, sorry, the only one I know the name of, I think. I know who she is. Yeah. So is it like the Highwaymen? Yes, exactly, exactly. And it's Crowded Table, and that song is my inspiration for that. our SE community and this podcast. And so thank you, Cindy Brooks. I love having you on here and I'll see you in October. Thanks so much for listening to the Sneaky Powerful podcast. I hope it offers some insight, opportunities for healing and self-discovery. I also hope it offers a little bit of solace and to whatever might be going on in your life right now I look forward to our next episode be safe and be well