Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
Sneaky Powerful is a podcast that explores the journey of healing from trauma. Through the perspective of Somatic Experiencing®, a naturalistic modality of trauma healing developed by Dr. Peter Levine, Ali Capurro and her guests explore the process and intricacies of reclaiming vitality. Within these artful conversations there are many threads, and specifically threads of hope, healing, and love.
Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
3 - Loving it All with Rachel Broome
Talking with Rachel about life and Somatic Experiencing® is a regulating experience. Her wisdom and humor offer a lovely navigation through various SE concepts. It's also so awesome that both Rachel and Ali were caught off guard by the power of a sneaky powerful SE demo during trainings.
Support this podcast at — https://sneakypowerful.buzzsprout.com
Hey everyone, welcome to the Sneaky Powerful Podcast. My name is Allie Capurro and I'm so glad you're here. Today I'm sharing my interview with Rachel Broom. I'm really excited for you to get to know Rachel a little bit more. She of course is a somatic experiencing practitioner as well as a licensed professional counselor and in the state of Arizona and a Reiki master teacher. Rachel has worked in nonprofit organizations serving infants, children, adults, and families in the Tucson area. She has completed trainings for early developmental and attachment trauma, TST and SRR, and most recently completed training as an EMDR therapist. She also serves in a foster care agency and has found her greatest passion is helping humans heal from their attachment wounds and developmental traumas. Rachel is fun and insightful. So let's get to the interview. Welcome, Rachel. I'm super, super excited to have you here today. Here we are. We've never gotten a chance to really talk to each other. How do you arrive? How do you get present for moments like these or any moment in life, really? How
SPEAKER_02:do I arrive? I like feeling my sit bones. Sit bones, I usually like orienting. I have a whole bunch of plants. I think I'm up to like a hundred and something in my house. I
SPEAKER_00:do a whole thing on the plant life of plants.
SPEAKER_02:I just started collecting more and more. I'm like, I just bring them. So I like keeping plants and something delightful to drink. Coffee persons. I'm like a little like, ah, that's right. I can take a breath and land and.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. I like all of those too. We have a really blue sky. How is it in Arizona right now? Not
SPEAKER_02:a single cloud outside. I can see it's hot though. It's like 95 today already.
SPEAKER_00:I almost sent you a picture of my soccer game where I was. We were freezing. I had on a sweatshirt with a hood, a coat, the wind was so cold and a blanket. And I was going to be like, Rachel, this is what I'm doing. See
SPEAKER_02:you soon. That's delightful. But I, oh my gosh, I get cold under like seven Now I'm like, get me the jackets and the blankets. And it's not cold for other places, but here I'm like, it's chilly under 70. Yeah. 70
SPEAKER_00:is my, I love 70. My partner's like, I'm good with 40. And I'm like, there's something very wrong with that. I don't get 40. Okay. So we're arriving a little bit more landing. One of the things that comes to mind initially is like, I love knowing how people even discovered SE. This
SPEAKER_02:is my favorite story to tell people. It's always so weird. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:good. Let's
SPEAKER_02:see. I got into a pretty major car accident when I was in college, like the end of my senior year. was working with a man who was a chiropractor, but he did body work. And so I'd been seeing him off and on for, I don't know, like 18 months or something. And at the end of it, I was like, oh, I'm applying to grad school, you know? And then I got in. So I told him and he's like, oh, great. You know? So we're just kind of chit-chatting about it. I'm like, yeah, I think I'm going to be a therapist. Like it's kind of what I'm looking at is like clinical mental health counseling. And he's like, have you heard of somatic experiencing? Like he couldn't get the words out fast enough, you know? And he's like, doing a little body work and I'm like no he's like oh my god it's cutting edge like it's phenomenal you're not going to believe the stuff it does and I'm like I I guess you know so I'm like googling the website like I think I was like going to a friend's wedding applying on the website on my phone or something you know like in freshly in grad school like two months and I remember taking the first weekend and being like this is some hokey stuff like yeah Counter Vortex, Thai training, like it kind of sounds a little bullshitty, but like, all right. And then I happened to volunteer for a demo in beginning two and had a beautiful experience.
SPEAKER_00:Who is your trainer? Joshua Silvey. I
SPEAKER_02:love Joshua.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. That's how we connected, as a matter of fact, through Joshua. Yes. Yeah. Secret little linker, linker-upper. He's very sneaky, but... So car accident immediately, because I think it's so helpful to hear how people get the help they need from like something like a car wreck. Like, because what were you noticing where you kind of went this? I'm not, well, I guess the physical piece while you were with a body worker, but.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. I mean, it was mostly physical, but. had kind of a strained relationship with my parents at the time too, you know? So I was thinking it was just physical. And then some of that like emotional stuff started coming out too when he was working. So it was like, I think I was kind of primed to start noticing the connection between like organism and personality. But I think it was just luck that I happened to be in the right place at the right time with someone that was like, you have to do SE if you're going to be a healer. You have to, you gotta
SPEAKER_00:know. I was trying to go back and think how I... came across Essie. And now that you've said that, I'm remembering it was in, someone had referred me to a physical therapist because of, I would go to like a chiropractor and they'd be like, have you ever had whiplash? And I'm like, no, I don't think so. That's my college, right? Exactly. My life's been a little whiplashy, but then I started to get asked, have you ever been choked? And I'm like, okay, what? I guess I need to do something. Exactly. That's going a little different direction than I anticipated. Anyway, so I met this physical therapist and he had Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine in his office. That's funny. Okay. So specifically connected. So I also love collecting everyone's magic moments because I think the science and then the sneaky- intuitive part of this it's like the intersection of those seem to create these magic moments and it's the heartwarming stuff and the goosebump stuff but I kind of wanted to ask if there's anything as you were healing I thought it was interesting when you said when you were talking about the car wreck and healing from that and stuff with your parents came up while you were healing the physical piece
SPEAKER_01:oh yeah
SPEAKER_00:right and I maybe if there's anything you'd be willing to say about that? I'm just so curious how that emerged for you.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I think bodies are pretty brilliant and I think there's a sense of being with someone that was trying really hard to create safety and, you know, kind of my own like personality organism trying to figure out like, is that actually a thing we know about? You know, does safety really exist?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And he was very kind and patient with me, you know, and really sweet. So I think that too was helpful with any healer, you know, kind of being like, no bodies just have reactions. Like it just doesn't feel good to you. We don't ask it questions. That's the way it is. And we trust it knows what it's doing, you know? So he wasn't like, oh, just push through, like just override, you know, like, yeah. So we're just going to take that as information and trust that it's there for a reason and we'll work around it. And if it comes up again to work with, we'll try it,
SPEAKER_00:you know?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Did it feel like something got worked through? Oh, yeah. That is exciting. I don't know if that, I've had it yet. Even now that I'm hearing you, I'm remembering even the physical therapist saying, addressing maybe part of my shoulder that felt tight and addressing the layers. Like he said, oh, I can tell that that's old in there. And I am like, wow. It's like this secret language that I don't understand and I'm clamoring to figure it out. Trying to learn it. Exactly. I'm like, what are you talking about?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But safety, when you said safety, that really resonated. And you were lucky enough to find this person that knew, trust the body-
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think those moments too, of like not even being safe, but like safe enough for the second, you know, I'm not asking you to say you trust me or that it's completely safe, but like, what if for the next two seconds, the tiger doesn't eat you, you know, just like a second where you get a little relief, then that makes huge differences for us.
SPEAKER_00:And you weren't even in grad school yet for, so this, yeah, that would be a lot because I had been in therapy for years. By the time I discovered SE, I had been I think at the end of grad school is when I signed up. So yeah, that would, Hokie would make sense where it felt like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, and it was so funny because then I got to do like the SE training and grad school concurrently. And so it was super funny to watch, you know, like grad school, like you have to have really firm boundaries and you don't tell your clients anything about yourself, you know? And then I'm like, that doesn't make sense to what I'm watching SE wise. Like healing is relational. That's the piece we missed is regardless of what happened, someone wasn't there to say, oh my gosh, you okay? I'm right here. You know, so it was just this like really juxtaposed thing happening where I'm like, I don't really buy into grad school so much, but also being super young in the SE training, you know, all that like imposter syndrome stuff. So it's
SPEAKER_00:like- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Which we all have. I think that's just a human thing.
SPEAKER_00:Always. I think that's actually what's making me feel better as I turn older each year. You know how that happens is that the people my age or younger that are doing these incredible, successful things still have this piece of, I don't feel like I really belong here. Are
SPEAKER_02:you
SPEAKER_00:sure you want
SPEAKER_02:me to do this? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's such a human thing in our cultures.
SPEAKER_00:It is. And then doing it anyway, which is kind of mind blowing to me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Oh, it's total badass. Humans are just badass. Show up anyway. And full of shame and are still like, someone will help me figure this out. We know we're supposed to not be alone in it.
SPEAKER_00:I think every time I do an interview, I come up with this quote, but I heard it on something that Peter did, or actually maybe it was from Abby Blakeslee at a training referring to Peter, but the saying is, that says, I give thanks for the help that's already on its way. Oh, I love that. Right? It's kind of a game changer, especially because with trauma, it feels like pretty sure no help's coming. Yeah, it's never going to end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we can totally jump right into the intersection of your specialty and your interests. And you talked about DID or dissociative identity disorder. And I am really interested to hear, first of all, how did your career kind of end up going in that direction where you were working with clients
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, showing up with this. You know, I go home and go to sleep and that's all I can function. And so I ended up reaching out to one of my SE friends here who knew a woman who was just supervising folks. And she is the coolest lady I've ever met in my life. She's 83. She's like a data programmer for 30 something years. Then she got her social work degree and she specialized with DID folks. And so it just happened when I was like, I'm going to think about dabbling in private practice. My very first client was someone who had DID. Okay. And so I'd said like, oh yeah, I work with dissociative disorders. You know, I'm super familiar. I'm a freeze buddy myself. Welcome to the team. There's lots of us. Love to have us. You know, and then out of her mouth, she's like, well, I've been formally diagnosed with this thing. And I'm like, okay, so I don't know a ton. I'm not saying no, but I want to give you consent. You know, I'm willing to work and try and learn. And I'm really interested in it. So I ended up having a conversation with my supervisor. I was like, I don't feel like totally over my head, but like, It's, you know, it's unknown territory and I don't know what to do. So she gave me all the resources. It was like, we need good people that aren't scared to mess up and mess up badly and fix it. Cause that's what you're going to do with people. You know, slowly I did that. And then I kind of like mentioned it here and there and I've gotten a few referrals and now I've got three or four folks I've been working with for some time. So
SPEAKER_00:when you have a client, a DID, someone with DID, what are you noticing? Because like we were talking about earlier, how it gets missed quite a bit. And I'm curious what you were noticing in your office when maybe even a new client that didn't have a previous diagnosis of DID and how you started to pick up on, okay. Yeah, when it's not United States of Tara, you know, did you ever watch that series with Tony Collette? But yeah, when it's not that blatant, different diagnosis, Yeah. So subtle.
SPEAKER_02:I'll say like the thread I've noticed is like generally a little confusion around stuff, like things that I'm used to, you know, like if we're thinking like activation, deactivation is sometimes like, I'll be like, oh, that was such a good SE technique. And then it like blows up a little bit. And I'm like, wait a minute, you know, how did we get in this other pocket? So it's all those like kind of pockets of coherence I'm really looking for. And there's just, it's like throwing stuff all over and seeing which, you know, which ones are blue and if I can connect them. So it kind of feels like somehow spinning a wheel and trying to see where we land. It's kind of a very peculiar process.
SPEAKER_00:I wish we could work with, I'll use myself. I'm pretty sure I'm on the continuum.
UNKNOWN:We've all got parts.
SPEAKER_00:We've all got parts. We do.
SPEAKER_02:Do you use IFS? Do you like parts work? I'm not like officially trained, but yeah. Oh yeah, we talk about parts all the time.
SPEAKER_00:So if there's this part of me that's really strong and there's this part of me that has these phobias, what's going to indicate this blown apart sense of self from trauma? Let me emphasize that. Where you're not noticing coherence, where you're noticing like... This fragmented, I had someone, the reason I thought of that example, I had someone say, I was talking about my phobias and I, and she said, it just doesn't seem really self-natured. And I'm like, gosh, that feels so, first of all, validating and thank you. And what would you, besides just having phobias, how would you kind of sense into there's some DID tendencies here? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, really, I'm one that like, I mean, I'm pretty focused around like coupling dynamics. Like I've got one woman I work with and they're all just really unique, brilliant humans, super funny, super loving, like some of the coolest people I've ever met. And she has such a funny system, you know, because for usual people, like we might like do, you know, one of these and I'll be like, oh yeah, okay. So you just, you know, moved your hair and it's like, if I am making eye contact at all or looking or doing any sort of mimicking back, we're out of there. So for her, I have to track my own system. So, you know, like I might be in the middle of a sentence like this and then I'll be like, oh man, like my heart just like, it is like beating out of my chest. And I think I'm terrified, you know? And then it's like, she gets the chance to connect with it and be like, wait a minute, in this storm of stuff happening, I felt that, you did too. And so we have a second to kind of be like, co-regulation, resonance. I don't know, you know, before we get flooded with other stuff. So I'm like, we're just picking little pockets where we can find it. And, you know, over time, the pockets get bigger where it's like, oh man, I think it's connected to this memory. So we've started to do some of that, but at first it's just like, I don't know what we're doing here. It feels bad and chaotic and there's moments of relief, but it's generally like.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Yep. Actually, that was so helpful to hear. I really, really, really appreciate that because it, first of all, it made so much sense professionally, but then personally, if you recognize that, I don't know, I always tend to make up the story behind it, which I know we're not supposed to do, but, but like, yeah, right. We fill in the gaps. We love making meetings. Yeah. If I can make meaning out of something, it's like, I can do it. Whatever that means, I can do it. Yeah. Then I'm safe. Everything's fine. Exactly. Meaning if there's something about being watched or something when she's... Because I've noticed that I've worked with people that when I notice something, there's this discomfort of, don't watch me. Don't notice. And so, yeah. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wow. Creating the safety. And then when it connects back to a memory, of course, a traumatic memory, of course, it's going to be, I picture like, what's something that explosive, you know, that we're just blows things everywhere. And it's as a way to survive though, instead of. Yeah. You also threw out earlier global high. What did you say? I did. I tried to write it down. Global high card carrying human.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If you're willing, how does your global high show up? What do you know about your own global high? Oh my,
SPEAKER_02:what do I not know about it? I'm getting better at it. I'll say that I'm getting better, not overriding, but I still work like three jobs. I work for a foster care agency and have private practice and do a ton of SE things.
SPEAKER_00:If someone's listening that doesn't know, so global high, global high intensity, I Activation. Activation, yeah, that's right. Yeah. How do you explain it to clients?
SPEAKER_02:I actually stole it from Joshua because he explained it in my favorite way I've ever heard. You know, he'll kind of say it's like those of us who all roads lead to Rome and Rome is always on fire.
SPEAKER_00:It's like perfect and then devastating.
SPEAKER_02:Right? Yeah. But I would be the one where I'm like, gosh, I've gone to therapy. Like, oh, I'm anxious. And then like, gosh, I got in a fight with my partner. And okay, also I had this car accident when I was 16. And then like, Okay, my mom is really awful to me. And it's like, you're just like... I can see how all the roads are on fire. So I don't do it as much anymore, but I'm like, welcome to the club. I have a full official car to carry around. It's fine.
SPEAKER_00:It's like slides. It's not even roads. It's like you start sliding. I can't, I can't even stop this. Are you noticing, how are the functioning levels of these people that you're working with? You know, anecdotally we'll work with your, your experience.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, And I've had folks all over the board. You know, I've had like one person was a really high, high functioning, like medical professional for a long time. Had no idea until, you know, they did EMDR in a treatment center and I kind of like blew the wheels off. And I, you know, I have like another person who doesn't work much because they're spending so much of their day kind of managing their system. And folks that are in between, you know, I have some folks that just kind of like go to work, go home and they're managing the best they can. So it's really interesting. I mean, no system is alike at all. If I've learned anything, all of the systems are very different.
SPEAKER_00:Tell me what you think of when you think of managing their system or when you say managing their system. Do you... I'm sneakily getting my own therapy right
SPEAKER_02:now. Don't we all do that where we're like, yeah, so if we had like developmental trauma, what would that look like? I might have a friend. That friend is absolutely me. But like, just to be clear, they're my friend. Just
SPEAKER_00:kidding. Asking for a friend. Me, me. I'm the friend. It's me. I'm the friend. So if a friend of mine was trying to manage or felt very, what would it be? By the end of the workday, for example, they're super, they're just done. They don't have capacity to maybe even cook dinner or be with the kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you notice as people heal the difference in their capacity to manage their systems, perhaps, is my question.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's a good question. Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is just because you can tolerate it doesn't mean that you have to or you need to or you want to. So
SPEAKER_00:huge. Say that again. We need like an echo or something. Yeah. And I think with trauma, I think that's so, so, so important because we learn to tolerate so much, especially if it's not a... one-off trauma
SPEAKER_02:oh yeah and we had to hold on for dear life and it's never going to end and we know it's not going to end and we just have to keep holding on and keep pushing and keep going and it's like in some ways that was true but it might not still be I have people all the time like can we sit with that thing you know and they're like yeah and I'm like wait a minute I heard your spray and say yes but We don't have to, you don't have to be in a shit storm. It doesn't mean that's how you get through your trauma. Sometimes it's saying like, I actually need a break. Can I have a snack? I would like some chocolate.
SPEAKER_00:You have some of the best sayings. Did you say spray and say, I'm taking notes on all of the great, like freeze bunny, for example, and the global high membership card. Oh man, it's so good. It really is. Again, you know what? Naming, just naming. Oh yeah. These things like, oh my gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Naming it and not being alone in it is probably the two things I use the most. Or if you are alone, like totally naming, like, I don't know what it's like to be a DID person, but I'm going to try my hardest to understand and make your life easier. And I won't give up when I mess up real bad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That puts me right into attachment stuff.
SPEAKER_02:My other like that is my stuff. I
SPEAKER_00:love it. Yeah. And how does that work with your DID clients as far as... Oh, we need to know your dog's name probably. Who is this trying to participate in our podcast?
SPEAKER_02:My name is Marceline. She loves to scream at me. Marceline.
SPEAKER_00:She's your child telling you what's up.
SPEAKER_02:She's probably a global high kind of dog. She's wild. She just... Loves running into things. She's bonkers. That's my orienting break.
SPEAKER_00:He keeps it real for all of us. Thanks, Marcy. Let's see. I didn't really actually give you probably space to or directly ask you about an Essie magic moment that you could think of personally or professionally. Ah,
SPEAKER_02:professionally. I just had one about two weeks ago. Oh, It's my favorite thing that ever happened. It's like makes me teary thinking about it. One of my DID folks got through a huge round of activation and they thought capacity and they just looked at me and I was like, is that what you say when you mean capacity? And I said, yeah. And then she kind of got teary eyes and was like, life isn't always going to be so shitty for me, is it? And it was like, oh, it's not. Are you crying? I was like, oh, absolutely. You have to be moved when you get stuff. That's kind of like the SE piece.
SPEAKER_00:The authenticity and the relational piece. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
SPEAKER_02:It was a real sweet one where I was like, today's a good day to be a therapist. That was sweet.
SPEAKER_00:I don't want to be dramatic, but I'm like, gosh, it sounds like that was the first time she had ever felt like that.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. Oh, man. She has had anything you could think of from, I'm sure, infancy. She's just had a hard, hard, hard life.
SPEAKER_00:I think that the magic of it, for me, in a general way, is the inspiration from the courage from trauma survivors, clients. I guess that's part of... My motivation for talking more about trauma and specifically through the SE lens because I know for myself and then also for several clients, it seems to feel like counseling or therapy is weak or their symptoms are a weakness. Yeah. Yeah. They're pathologized. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I don't fly right now, really. I sort of ish once in a while, but the whole adding a mask to my face is like, oh, I had a little trouble breathing on a plane anyway. Oh,
SPEAKER_02:I get it. Oh man. I've got all that like birth trauma stuff. I'm like, I'm already an anxious wreck. And then I hang out with girls.
SPEAKER_00:My lungs are tightening. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting air. Okay. No,
SPEAKER_02:but I'm not breathing. I'm pretty sure we're already
SPEAKER_00:dying. So Is anybody around that could help me? Just what everyone wants to hear on the plane, right? But I know that for most of the... It started about age 21. So for over 20 years, it's been a thing. And I know that the way I internalized it and the narrative that I had around it was, what's wrong with me? I'm such a loser. I'm so weak, right? And... to know, oh, what if it actually has to do with maybe inescapable attack? And maybe when you get on a plane, it's like a flashback to that really horrific thing. And I'm like, well, that certainly feels a little less shameful.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I remember listening to all that, like, you know, the kind of like negative self-talk thing that we do. I don't remember. It was one of the faculty. I don't remember if it was like Kathy Kane or Joshua or like Peter or something I was listening to. And I remember at one point them talking about like, that is RD. Yeah, right. Yeah. It makes us feel so terrible. So mean. I'm like, I wanted to always say that to like clients too. Like this actually was the defense for you as a tiny human. That's all you have, you know, as you just made it about you, which is brilliant. You could survive that. That's a brilliant thing that your system did. And it lies. Tiny humans are wrong. We're bad scientists. It's lying, but it was really smart, you know? They're missing a lot of years of research and scientists. They come up with these hypotheses that are, oh man, brilliant, you know, and then they're just wrong. They're just not at all right.
SPEAKER_00:That's where IFS has been an attachment, but so transformative in my personal journey. But yes, they're not scientists. Tiny people are not.
SPEAKER_02:Not very good ones. I think we try.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Developing. Developing scientists. Something to be said about. Oh, but yeah, that's such an important piece of this whole thing. Will you say what you said again with what you think maybe either the faculty or Peter said? That when we lack agency, basically, it's trauma.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because we're helpless, hopeless. So when a kid thinks it's about them. Yeah. it's a form of agency because they can change it or influence it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's a way to get control of seemingly a not survivable situation. You know, it's like, we don't have agency really until we're toddlers. And even then toddlers aren't the greatest, you know, around them. Like they're not great at calming themselves down or making their needs known or, you know, so if we don't have someone that's attuned and trying to understand, like, man, we can go all sorts of places trying to manage what we need to.
SPEAKER_00:And that connects to another piece of something that I'm wanting to dispel as a community public service announcement. This idea, like toddlers, for example, not great scientists yet. But I think what I remember a lot raising two little toddlers is that these behaviors were manipulative behaviors. Oh yeah. Oh man. And I'm not saying that that couldn't be a part of it, but really they're just trying to get needs met. That's it. Yeah. Did you work with toddlers at all? Was that part of it?
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah. I was a infant mental health clinician for a couple of years, just doing like birth to five work, which was mostly caregivers, you know, but it was like, Yeah. So, you know, like if you've got a two-year-old and they're like hitting the crap out of you and you're like furious, that's normal. And poor to a little two-year-old, you couldn't do that. You know, you would have been in so much danger. And so for your system, when that's happening, it's like systems don't tell time. Your nervous system is right back. They're like, stop doing it. We're going to die. You know, so just normalizing that thing for parents was like, oh, you know, and watching their wheels turn, like no one wants to not parent their kids well. And kids are really good at getting their needs met and what ever way they can do it. They're just going to figure it out.
SPEAKER_00:And that it is a need. It's not like this want, like, I need this candy or you suck. It's an actual need of whether it's affection, attention, or wow.
SPEAKER_01:I
SPEAKER_00:feel like what you just shared is kind of this gold that I'm like, I hope it's really heard because it's really useful and important and life-changing. Infant to five. Wow. Did you, was that, so postgraduate school, I'm assuming. And then, so you had done SE. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02:I've done SE, I've done a little bit of like circle of security training and nurturing parenting and all sorts of parenting curriculum stuff. But I mean, I think the most important thing was just like being with, you know, people through stuff and just like an SE, you know, it's like most of the time we don't need to do anything for our clients so much as we need to be with them. So same thing for parents, like, you know, your kid falls and it's like, oh, you're fine. It's like, hold on, falling is scary. Most of the time they're not hurt. It's just really disorganizing. So we might need to cry and have a minute to get reorganized and let the system like cohere again and be like, all right. Okay, woof, that was really scary. You know, usually kids move through it so much quicker for you. Like, whoa,
SPEAKER_00:scary, okay? I want to like go back historically and kind of go, who? Because I'm sure that was normal at some point. Who's like bad idea? You can't
SPEAKER_02:cry. We got to just move on. Go back to work. Go back to school. We got to do.
SPEAKER_00:Really mad at them right now. I'm going to figure this out.
SPEAKER_02:I spent time sitting and being like, I think we would all save ourselves so much shame. Every parent I worked with always showed up thinking they were the world's worst parent. And it was like, man, you are doing the best with what you have. I firmly believe that about every human. you didn't get taught better. And we don't have a culture where it's like, hey, parenting's really effing hard. Help me. It's like, you're supposed to just do it and show up and be amazing at everything. And that's just not how it works.
SPEAKER_00:A friend of ours, he was several years younger after we had our first baby. First of all, after we had our first baby, It was, we were both like, were we, were we in a major car wreck last night? Like what actually happened? It was so insane. I had signed, I didn't end up getting a, what do you call it? Epidural. But I had signed for one because I really wanted one in the midst of the pain. We were too late, but I was looking at my signature the next day and I'm like, what is that? I was not right. So that was stunning. And then we're looking around at all these humans that we know, like, you did this too? Are you freaking kidding me? This was insane. But beyond that, I was going to say a friend of ours who's much younger and hadn't had kids, he was single. And he's like, so how does it being a parent? And this is like a month into it. And we're like, shell shock. We're like, it's really hard. Our life is, we just had no idea.
SPEAKER_02:We'll never be the same.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Never. Never. Yeah. Oh, man. Let's do some regulating after that. So worth it. But yeah, we didn't know what we were getting into. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think anyone does. We wildly underprepare folks.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And then why doesn't everyone know about attachment? It's so annoying. I
SPEAKER_02:mean, this is... I can't tell you the amount of times I got asked, like, but I'm supposed to let my baby cry it out, right? Like I'm supposed to teach them to be independent. And so it was this really sweet thing I got to do with people of like, let's talk about nervous systems and that calming ourselves down reliably physiologically doesn't happen until we're four. And if you've met four-year-olds, they're not really good at it. I don't know this till they're four. The parasympathetic, we don't come on board into the world with it, right? Like we realize, you know, so it's like through those interactions of safety, we learn how to calm ourselves down. We learn what's okay and what's not okay. I think when I was teaching parenting, it was like by like six months old, babies know what emotions are and aren't okay with parents. They know how to blend in because that's how we're going to survive this. We're totally dependent, you know? So it was like watching these parents be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But I don't, you know, I don't want my baby to ever be upset. And I was like, I hate to break it to you. Babies are just upset when they need something. And it doesn't mean you're a bad parent. It means they feel safe enough. You know, just like that fake cry. It was like, because as a little human, they don't have to expend all this energy to get their need met. So when you've got a whiny two-year-old, it means they know you listen to them. That's a really good thing. But we've taken it to like, toddlers are just whiny, the terrible twos, you know, like you've built a relationship and they know you and they know that you love them and you're going to meet their needs. And it's important And reframing that tiny piece would shift stuff for people so quick. It was wild. I'm like, I wish we had like a little like hospital, like, Just narrate what you're seeing with your babies. You're doing great.
SPEAKER_00:I would love to see Essie in hospitals. I could have used it. That would have been incredibly helpful for me as a parent. I'm kind of tripping about this six months old piece too. It absolutely makes sense. By six months old, we know what emotions will and will stand the best chance of getting a need met. Yeah. That's powerful. So you said... You had to work through a personal experience of assault. And I'm like, that might be a useful way to talk to me about SE. Was it after you had started SE? I actually did it in beginning two in a demo. Of course, because it's better when there's an audience. Same. Well, something similar. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I remember volunteering and getting up to like the front of the room and then being like, what did I just do? Like, I don't remember, you know, like, I'm like, I'm sure my organism was like, ah, someone that can help, you know, but my personality was like, everyone's gonna know I'm really fucked up, shouldn't be here. I also look 12. So like, people are gonna ask me questions. Did I wear deodorant? Like, I have no idea what's going on, you know?
SPEAKER_00:I think mine was, my demo was with Abby beginning too. Literally when I assist and I see that demo, I'm like, oh, I did that. Every attachment wound I have, like, I'm like, Abby, don't leave me.
SPEAKER_02:I have that with Joshua after that demo too. Like, I just weirdly am a little obsessed, you know, now where I'm like, It's not too unhealthy, but it was a big piece of life for me. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:man. So what are you willing to share about it? What's the takeaway or what was the SE part that really...
SPEAKER_02:We were doing, I think, the stop exercise. I don't even think I realized I was processing an assault. I hadn't remembered it was there. Dude, were you standing... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you tell them when to come. Mine too.
SPEAKER_01:Ah, I
SPEAKER_02:love
SPEAKER_01:that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's like the best
SPEAKER_02:one.
SPEAKER_00:I
SPEAKER_02:love it. I see magic right here. It's all that co-resonance, you know?
SPEAKER_00:So the exercise is basically, because that was when you were in person.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Me too. Yeah. So how did he set it up?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Gosh, I remember they got me mic'd up. I am so disorganized around the beginning, actually. I don't remember much of it. I remember him being like, you know, you can kind of tell me to go where you want and we'll start there. If you want me to be like out in the parking lot, in the lobby, just tell me. And sure, now knowing him so well, I'm like, he definitely knew I was like a deep freeze buddy. You know, I was like, I'm not dissociative ever. And I could just watch assistants be like. OK, yeah. So, you know, like just like real gently, not ruining my life, but being like this girl is in freeze deeply. So I remember, you know, I'd be like, oh, yeah, you could come forward like total and like fun response, you know, like, yes. And he'd be like, oh, I think I'm going to maybe like take a step to the side, you know, and then I'd. And at one point he got close enough that I remember saying like, I have the urge to run and also the urge to like sit down and like rock myself. And so he took a step back and was like, I'm going to be right here, but we're just going to give you space. You okay if I talk to the group? And I can't remember anything that happened for probably, I'm guessing it was 10 minutes. I have no, you know, when you're in that weirdly freeze state with someone being really attentive, sweetly, it's like, I have no idea what time was. You know, and then at some point it was like, I remember looking up and being like, holy shit. Like there is like light and color and like texture. Where is this room? Like we've been in it two weekends, you know? And I remember saying like, I've never seen anything look like, I just couldn't stop looking at walls. I've never seen texture like that ever. You know? So I was like, I have never seen this. Like, what is going on, you know? And so we did like another round and I think I had like a single tear and I was not a crier. Now I cry often, cute puppies, babies. I love crying, but at the time it was like, we are not, you know, single tear. And he did that like sneaky Peter, like if your tears could speak, what would they say? Stop it. Uh-huh. And out of my mouth was like, it's over. And he was like, okay, it's over, you know, took a step back. So I had no idea I was processing this whole thing, you know? And so we get to the end, he's like, you know, you're kind of okay to sit up here and I'm sure he could feel me getting overwhelmed because he's a quite intuitive healer also and did this really sweet like hey room can we can we pull our attention back you know and then I got to cry because it was like this relief like I didn't even know I was holding that of like holy shit you know it's an experience and one of my good friends at the time was like can I ask a question you know and I'm like oh yeah and he's like were you processing what we've think you were processing and then it clicked like that was the second after the demo while we were doing like the Q&A that I was like oh man I had no idea and I just renegotiated this sexual assault in front of 65 people and it didn't feel too scary I
SPEAKER_00:sometimes I think that having that group supports can be supportive yeah
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it does something. Demo. I mean, demos in general. I'm like, they're just magic. There's something about that many people holding you. There's something so tender about
SPEAKER_00:it. Yes. That's so... Oh my gosh. I'm really grateful for you sharing those. That was lovely. It's so
SPEAKER_02:lovely. But that's my magic SC moment. And I can remember him saying to me, because I remember being like, well, things always look like this. And he went... they might, they might not, you know? And I'm like, I still remember that so specifically. Cause he was just like, yeah, we'll see, you know, like didn't put too much pressure. Didn't ask me to do anything. I was like, okay, anything you need right now? You know where I'm like, what do you mean anything I need? Like, did I do okay? Are you, you're not like all my attachment disorganized. Like, I'm not okay. It was just fine. But it was like, ah, and then assistants were like, How you doing? You know, and I'd be like, yeah, I'm okay. Thanks for being nice and asking. Are these tears? I'm not breathing. I'm actually breathing a lot. And so I don't like it. You know, like it was just this like wild experience of like, I have a body. It has feels. Do I like them? I think I don't. I think I died. Nope. Still breathing. I really don't like breathing. It's like, and everyone is so tender.
SPEAKER_00:You're capturing it so well. I can barely contain myself. The thoughts, like, externalizing the thoughts. Am I breathing? I think I might be dead. Am I dead? Is this what I'm asking? Oh, yeah. Okay, wait, no.
SPEAKER_02:I definitely died. But dead people don't talk. So, like, this can't be, well, do we know? Because what if I'm a ghost? You know, like, just, like, go through this full slew of, like, ah! scary and I'm okay. And am I actually okay? I'm not sure. You said I'm okay. Okay. I'm okay.
SPEAKER_00:That circles so quickly back to what your client said about maybe life isn't going to always suck this or so bad or kind of, sorry for the rough paraphrase, but yeah, it reminds you of that. Like where you're like,
SPEAKER_02:wait, not hate myself and hate life and relief and maybe joy and someday pleasure. You know, that thing exists.
SPEAKER_00:It's so hopeful. And so I think I'm thinking of when Peter says, as we've heard so many times, the quote of trauma is not a life sentence. It doesn't have to be a life sentence.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's like trauma is a fact of life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not
SPEAKER_02:a life sentence.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_02:So good.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I'm kind of melting into your stories right now where I'm really feeling the bigness of Essie and the gratitude and also relating because I did the exact same demo with Abby and Bozeman. And I remember we separated in the room across the stage. It wasn't a stage. Yeah. Yeah. And the front of the room, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like, okay, I want you to stop. And same thing, like the fawning, like, oh, I don't want to do this wrong. What's the right answer? And then she probably felt it before I did. She probably
SPEAKER_02:stopped. I'm on the other side. I'm like, they totally knew what they were doing, but I was like, that was just magic. Yeah. A little bit of magic, but still pretty magic that they can hold you so sweetly and you're like attached.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah. I wonder what ages that healed in me. A lot. A lot. A lot. All of them. Exactly. Actually, probably accurate. A piece at least from all of them was like... Thank you. They're all listening. So now I fangirl with Abby and I'm like assisting with her and I'm like, I kind of fangirl with you, Abby. So I got to keep myself a little
SPEAKER_02:contained. I was helping with Kansas City and one of the girls there made these stickers and she has like Masheed Hager fan club stickers and then Joshua Silvey stickers and made them shirts that they each wore. It was like...
SPEAKER_01:It's very cute. Who
SPEAKER_02:is this person? I've got to
SPEAKER_01:read
SPEAKER_02:this. I think Jenna Melks is her last name. I'll totally send you a link to
SPEAKER_01:her. I
SPEAKER_02:love
SPEAKER_01:that.
SPEAKER_02:Cute, like, clothes and stickers. And I'll shamelessly plug her because she's adorable and an engineer-something architect, I think. I can't quite remember. But looking at how to build trauma-informed spaces. Are you kidding? Yeah, she's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:She's very cool. So, oh my gosh, that's... So inspiring. I'll be like, here's her stuff. I totally am ready for it. I'm here for it. Um, I'm also here for who's going to do the merch, the SE merch, like, like the machine fan club. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, I was like, you should get that out with SE, you know, like get their little SCI logo, but there's tons of us that are pretty obsessed with machines. So. right I am a huge oh man huge fan her my favorite quote that I love to tell everyone is I remember doing a bunch of my personal sessions with her and at one point being like I've been at this like don't I get to get like done you know and she just went oh honey we're not cookies and you don't have time and I just tell that to everyone because I'm like that was the sweetest like Honey, you're not going to just be done. That's not a thing, you know. And you don't have to do this yourself. You get community and connection and other people that love you. And I was like, thanks, Mama Machine. I got to go now because I'm avoidant. But thanks, you know. I'll see you later. My disorganized attachment is up. That was too sweet. Where's the leave the meeting button? I got to go. Bye. That was nice.
SPEAKER_00:Would you name any more of my life? Oh my gosh, this is good stuff. That's so true. Connecting. Oh, this feels so good. And I might die. So, and then mine is set up where I have to hit leave twice for some horrific reason. So I'll hit leave and I'm like, still here.
SPEAKER_02:It's the worst. It's so hard to be like, okay, I'll do the thing. I'll say goodbye. And then you're like, okay. Yeah. I mean, bye. This is awkward. My attachment's up. My shoulders are in my ears. This is so weird.
SPEAKER_00:I've just started saying it's so complicated being me. Like, it's just complicated having this weird attachment. And then, yeah, all the things in this organization. I've been appreciating Glennon Doyle for just putting it out there. Right? And how Abby teases her about like, okay, I don't know that this is a real thing, but why can't you put the lid on the toothpaste? And I'm like, right? I don't know why I can't, but I can. That lid just doesn't fit or something. It doesn't go. There's so many pieces to that that are awesome. Oh, I was going to tell you about what did Abby say? She wanted a bumper sticker that said shift happens. I was like, oh, I love
SPEAKER_02:that. My cohort made that said shift happens. And then on the back of them, we put, what do you notice now? And I was really like, I should have had those like. Who's
SPEAKER_00:going to do this? Okay, call to action. Who in the community is up for this? Because this merch thing is the real thing. Okay, I'll have to think through that. Okay, so we did it. We're at our hour, sadly. We made it. We did it. We made it. We talked about some bomb-ass stuff. And... I have questions about what are you reading, watching, listening to, enjoying now? What inspires you lately? Regulates you lately?
SPEAKER_02:Beautiful chorus. Have you ever heard beautiful chorus?
SPEAKER_00:Never.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, they're an amazing group. They're just kind of mantras that they sing kind of like repeatedly, but they modulate the chords and it's just, you know, like
SPEAKER_01:some
SPEAKER_02:of them.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm a beautiful healing kind of being or, but they just, I mean, I will sit and like meditate with them in the morning and sometimes just like weep, you know, just like, right. We're all works in progress and masterpieces and we have time. We don't have to do it all today.
SPEAKER_00:Not cookies. Not cookies. Do you take time daily? I'm not doing that lately. And I'm noticing you, have you been able to do that? Sometimes.
SPEAKER_02:But I also, I don't know, in this kind of pandemic-y land, you know, my system is definitely still in energy conservation mode. So I try to be gentle when it doesn't want to do so much or, you know, days I wake up really anxious, I'll go weightlift a ton and try to just do it slowly.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm doing it. All right. Maybe can we take like two more minutes and talk about weightlifting? I'm so addicted to your story. I love weightlifting. And that you're doing it. How, what is getting you out of bed for whatever in the morning?
SPEAKER_02:That is all my partner. I'm a freeze bunny. He's very sympathetic.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:We also got so early because, you know, COVID's still here and there's very few people at 4 a.m. at the gym. Yeah. And then I come back and nap for like an hour and a half and then get up for work. So it's not too bad. I do a full like activate, deactivate, rest. It's not too bad. Brilliant. It's pretty good. I know for a while I was like, 4 a.m. is just like, you are psychotic. You're so dysregulated. I actually like it a little bit. She's always like, Rachel, go to bed. And I'm like, I will. Just give me an hour. Rachel goes
SPEAKER_00:to bed. That's awesome. I love that you attack first. You are psychotic because that's our go-to, right? If it doesn't work, you must be.
SPEAKER_02:I have to be dysregulated. I'm going to point my finger because I know you are. Now that I'm like, maybe you're a little bit more regulated than me, but I'm not going to say that to your
SPEAKER_00:ego. But yeah, we will not talk about that. Anything else that you're reading or addicted to watching? Encanto a lot.
SPEAKER_02:So cute.
SPEAKER_00:If I didn't call this podcast sneaky powerful, it was going to be, we don't talk about Bruno. I feel like I have a gag order on most of my experiences. And so we don't talk about Bruno's really. I love that. Yeah. Oh man. I love that you're watching Encanto. There's
SPEAKER_02:no rules around here. Just following impulses, you know, watching Disney movies. Like that's about what my system can handle these days. No surprises. Things work out nicely. Feels good. It's predictable. I
SPEAKER_00:am inspired by you right now, Rachel. What's your last name? Is it still? Oh, it's Broom. What was it before? Halls. That's right. Okay. Because I've only known, I think I only knew you for one, because we're only on beginning two with Joshua, right? And assisting. Yeah. So you were Paul's and then Broom. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:People be like, what? What's happening? I'm like, all right, I got married. I changed my name, my family of origin. I was like, moving on.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Going to get a little organization, some containment. Feels good.
SPEAKER_00:There's something really beautiful about the security of a committed partnership. The attachment-wise. It was really something for me. Okay, Rachel, I am really, truly inspired by you and really, really grateful that you took the time off of your day, Saturday, your day off to be with me. And I'll see you in, I think we get to see each other in a couple of weeks.
SPEAKER_02:Just a few weeks.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Which is awesome on Zoom. And are you planning to come to Boise for... I think I might be. I
SPEAKER_02:might be aiming to do it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I'm going to really like kind of peer pressure, maybe bully. No, I would never bully.
SPEAKER_02:Bully with love. Bully
SPEAKER_00:with love. Love with love. But yes. Okay. So yeah. Thank you so much for coming. And it was a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening to the podcast. Thanks for listening. I'm glad you're here and we will see you on the next episode.