Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
Sneaky Powerful is a podcast that explores the journey of healing from trauma. Through the perspective of Somatic Experiencing®, a naturalistic modality of trauma healing developed by Dr. Peter Levine, Ali Capurro and her guests explore the process and intricacies of reclaiming vitality. Within these artful conversations there are many threads, and specifically threads of hope, healing, and love.
Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
17 - Deconstructing Superman: Moral Dilemmas and Mythic Power
What does Superman reveal about our deepest psychological needs and fears? Superman isn't just a superhero – he's a mirror reflecting our cultural psyche and personal values.
Trauma therapists Thayer, Burt, and guest Ali explore what makes this flat-arc character simultaneously compelling and frustrating. Superman's unwavering goodness feels both aspirational and unrealistic to many of us who navigate moral complexities daily. His secure attachment offers a fascinating counterpoint to trauma-origin superheroes, demonstrating how stable, loving parenting can create resilience and moral clarity even when faced with earth-shattering revelations.
The conversation delves briefly into anti-Superman narratives like "The Boys" and "Invincible," exploring what happens when similar powers exist without moral guidance. When Superman chooses not to intervene in geopolitical conflicts despite having the ability, it raises profound questions about boundaries, agency, and responsibility that mirror our own struggles with helping versus controlling.
Most fascinating is how Superman at times functions as a Rorschach test – we see in him what we need or what we fear. His character challenges us to examine where our own moral lines exist. Would we steal medicine to save our child? Would we kill to protect someone we love? Superman's consistent choices illuminate our own moral complexity by contrast.
Whether you're a comic book fan or simply interested in the psychology behind our cultural heroes, this episode offers fresh insights into how Superman continues to captivate our imagination and challenge our understanding of power, goodness, and what it means to be truly heroic in a complicated world.
Hey, welcome back to the Sneaky, powerful Podcast. My name is Allie Capuro and I'm so glad you're here. Today's episode is something different. I got the opportunity to do an Instagram live with the trauma nerds Burt Rogers and Thera Case. I loved every minute of it and I hope you do too, so let's get started.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody. Hey, it's Thayer here for Trauma Nerds Live and we are going to be talking about Superman today A little bit. We're going to start the conversation. We have a guest today, alec Capuro, who will tell you a little bit about herself. We got somebody here too. Let's see here. Hey, bert, hey, and I'm trying to figure out how to do the require this. See, ali, there we go.
Speaker 3:Hello, hello.
Speaker 2:It worked. It was a little bit. You know this. The technology has gotten better, right? Well, welcome everybody to Trauma Nerds. Today we're gonna do our little half hour live on the subject, and today the subject is superman and we have ali caparo with us. Ali, you want to tell, tell, tell the people a little bit about yourself and your podcast too hey people.
Speaker 1:Uh, I have a podcast um called sneaky powerful, based on kind of somatic experiencing stuff and I'm an sep therapist, all that good stuff and uh so happy to be here with trauma nerds happy to have you yeah, it's good stuff.
Speaker 2:Good stuff, fellow nerds here. Well, okay, so this is the deal. So we have this big kind of semi-cultural event of a new release of superman here, who's been around for many, many years, and, uh, there's a bit of a gamble. We didn't know how it would do. It seems to be doing really well. I personally think the take on it is really good, but maybe I just wanted to start. I just wanted to maybe start this off by asking you guys a couple questions.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We'll do this a little differently. Yes, ma'am, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's spontaneous. I guess I just want to, just for both of you, like without editing. Without editing, which you probably will, but if you don't like, what does Superman mean to you?
Speaker 3:For me it's a myth.
Speaker 3:It's something I always said to myself of like of you know, a representation of someone that's going to be all moral and all powerful, is going to save you, and it was always used in my, at least in my growing up. I was like, yes, superman ain't coming, superman ain't showing up. So Superman often means like I found myself. I like the article you kind of sent. I really resonated with it. New York Times article you sent. I was like, yeah, I never really resonated with Superman, but I also have a lot of Superman gear in, you know, in my closet. You know I think the I love the strength aspect, I love the idea of you know somebody coming into the, you know, coming to a planet and becoming, you know, securely attached to his folks and like becoming this, like great protector and everything else. But honestly, as a superhero, I've always found him kind of boring, like just like he's a good guy, he drinks his milk and eats his vitamins and yeah, that's it. He didn't see.
Speaker 2:it didn't land as complex to me well, and also just for the listeners, that article is by juno diaz, who's a really well-known writer who actually hadn't seen the movie yet and is a comic book fan, so it's a great article to check out. It's called my Problem with Superman, from July 10th, so yeah, okay, what about you Allie?
Speaker 1:A little bit different than Burt, but not too different. Let's see, I'm working on the, not editing. I like that impulse, kind of following that. I love that you guys are doing this because it gave me the opportunity to think more deeply about it as opposed to just kind of like, oh, whatever superman and that's why I love this uh, trauma nerds, um, collaboration you have anyway, but wonder woman is actually more of who got me into being interested in superman. So I kind of went through that doorway, um, and I am like, without editing I'm so sorry to say I am so corny like I love the corniness. I think it's my trauma, magical thinking and I'm not joking like I I love the um I don't love the gosh, golly, like that's a little much for me, but I do love the like it's gonna be good, it's gonna work out, the hopefulness I'm like the I am who they make Superman for.
Speaker 2:Like I'm in the audience, like oh, my gosh, he's all alone, and then all of a sudden his friends show up and I'm like, oh, thank god yeah, yeah, he's all alone, and then all of a sudden, his friends show up and I'm all, oh, thank god, yeah, yeah, it's interesting and I guess, and for me, like I, I was never, like when I grew up, like when I was really young. I mean I've been in the comics since, like you know, conscious and uh, and so I mean I like superman, you know, and I grew up with the, like Chris Reeves movies, you know that was a huge part of my childhood.
Speaker 2:You know that was massive. You know I mean I was really little when they came out, but I remember them really clearly and it just was like you know he Chris Reeves really put a whole new kind of spin on it, like he was just so relatable and there was something about him that like, um, I mean, maybe just because he was such a good actor too, I don't know, but like, but there was something about him.
Speaker 2:So that was kind of like how I really thought about it. And like, when I got into comics I never really got so much into superman comics like I never really kind of I was like like, like Juno, I was more into like Spider-Man like and other kinds of comics like not not necessarily Superman. I was more into Marvel when I was younger.
Speaker 2:I was some DC also, but DC was kind of a mess in the early 80s so and that's how it started, but but but yeah, I didn't really relate to it.
Speaker 2:And then only later I kind of got into superman through anti-superman, like, like, like, like that's how I like just like this article and and that was really interesting to me because, like, I didn't really relate to him and I kind of think that like, um, maybe partly because like he's, he is like kind of he is good, like you know, he like tries to do the right thing, like and that's kind of terrifying, because the anti-superman is like what if, like he had a terrible upbringing, right, like there's a he's a threat also, like in all his goodness he's always a threat and I love how that that always is a theme like, like, like, no, I mean, you know it's kind of like he's a superhero who nobody can stop, like he's more powerful than anybody, you know. Like he's faster than the flash, like he's stronger than anybody. Like he can like stop dark side. Like you know he's. He's kind of invincible, right, which is why the show invincible is so good, you know they play right right in the comic invincible right.
Speaker 2:but so that, how is? That's how I got into it later. I love the tension of anti-Superman and that's why I kind of come to love Superman. I feel like he plays a part of why security is so important. The guy's a secure guy.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's why he's not an asshole. Right, exactly, exactly, he had great parents.
Speaker 2:And he didn't have a lot of trauma growing up right like he was he was really kind of like. You know, he was like he had a good, really good, sensitive, attuned parents. You know, and and and like as a result, the world is safe right right, which is kind of interesting. So anyway, that's how I've always entered, as opposed to, like those of you know, the boys, right with Homelander right.
Speaker 2:Like Homelander is a little different, or Omni man and Invincible, or or like in the in the like, you know, he has his clone right, right, but that that's a reference to well, no, well, there's bizarro also, but bizarro is not as powerful as superman like, but he's, but he. But there is a uh, an alternate reality. It's like you know the multiverse. There is a version of superman like I I think it's called ultra man, like in this thing, that, and he's bad and he's like, like, taking over the world, right, and nobody can do anything right. So, anyway, that's kind of where I wanted to enter it. So, like we all have these very different like, I feel conflicted about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I think what it is is like for folks who have like a neutral, good, flat character arc. I found it myself in the anime I watched too. I'm like man. This dude just implicitly knows what the right thing to do is.
Speaker 2:Huh, that's interesting Like wow.
Speaker 3:Implicitly just off the rip Great. So even like, I found myself gravitating more to the anti-hero kind of guys. But in that situation, though, I do like the writing aspect of a character like Superman bouncing off of other character archetypes, because I think that's what makes him compelling. When I watched man of Steel in 2009, I watched all the other aspects of Superman. He's bouncing off all these other Lex Luthor someone, someone who is, you know, pretty irredeemably evil from the viewpoints I've seen him from.
Speaker 3:You know, so like that idea of like oh, what happens when you know a flat arc, character, arc good character bumps into like absolute evil, and what do you do with that?
Speaker 2:You know, Well, I mean Lexx luther is not, I mean lex luther is just, he's like very insecure I mean, that's like what it comes down to, and that thing is is like they don't. You know that, like they don't have, like there is a point like like you know, like in the movie, and that there's always a kind of like like you know, if there was somebody like superman, should he be interfering in international politics?
Speaker 2:and also at the same time. How could he like imagine if like what would it be? Went in and stopped ukraine, or like, went to gaza, or like or like went to sudan or like whatever. I mean like, like, what would that do you know? Like?
Speaker 1:you know, it's.
Speaker 2:It's a legitimate point. If there were actually people like that, you know, like you know, how would people stay out of, like you know, should they stay out of things like what is right and wrong in that category, right?
Speaker 1:you know, like yep, I watched watchmen last night. Do a little more preparation for today, and yeah that same question, you know, comes up at the end, where it's like dude humanity, or you, mr manhattan, taking the brunt of this like mass disaster. And I think it. I think that's what I'm loving about this, about superman and talking about it is there's this complexity to it that could, kind of you could unravel forever and then there's also this basicness to it of good and evil and like secure, insecure, attachment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:Shitty or not, shitty parents Right.
Speaker 2:And also idealization, because in this version of it he like as a resource and we're talking about like SE stuff, like he like when he's hurt, he uses like a tape reel of his Kryptonian parents, Right, but it's flawed and he doesn't find out till the end, Till the end about what happened.
Speaker 3:Are we going no spoilers with this one, by the way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are spoilers.
Speaker 3:There'll be some spoilers, Just making sure before I start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, no, it's okay. We need to do this. It's impossible to talk about this.
Speaker 3:Fair, fair, fair. No, we need to do. It's impossible to talk about this. That's fair, fair. No, that idea, that like, because that when I, when I got the plot, synopsis of the entire thing I was like oh, there are some parallels here.
Speaker 3:It literally is the parallel from um, if you're familiar with dragon ball z goku's story. He drops, he literally is sent to. They don't really. It's like halfway through the manga until it becomes dragon ball z. He finds out that this neutral, good character for the entirety of a series finds at the beginning of a new series oh, buddy, you're an alien and you've gotten here because they sent you here to destroy the entirety of this planet. And that's the entire grist of the entire first arc of him coming to grips with who he is and what he's here for and pushing back against it.
Speaker 3:His whole entire character betrays the nature which he was sent, because his whole crew that sent him it was ruthless conquerors. They, you know, blew up planets, didn't matter, whatever, whatever. And I looked at superman's story in this new one, I'm like, oh, it's literally yeah like your parents sent you here to enslave the entire year.
Speaker 3:So I I think I thought what that thought got me to was like thinking about yes, what are you handed? I think, aware, I think, as a therapist, we try to find out like, what are what, what are the through lines, the intergenerational trauma looks, what are the epigenetics saying, what is your environment saying? And then how do you turn out? You know how much, how much of a. I mean, I'm sure the neuroscientists are coming. I can hear them breaking down the doors and saying, well, how much of a choice do we actually have?
Speaker 3:You know, but, I, but I think it's an important thing to ask, like you know, yeah, if you've been handed this awful God awful hand, and then what happens when you meet something different? What happens what? What is the power, what are the? What are the limits, limits of co-regulation is the point that I kind of came across Like what, what, how far can you go when you were given the idea, like look how powerful of an idea that is.
Speaker 2:I mean, like he didn't know he was going on this, like like it was a it's a great example We've talked about sport, about like internal versus external locus of control. Like he didn't fully trust himself, so like he was using his like this idea of parents he never knew, he never knew to like bolster himself and it turned out to be bullshit. In fact, it was his parents wanted him to conquer. I see Azalea jumped on here. Hey, go on, azalea, she has a lot to say about this. Yeah, but there's a lot to that right, like like that, this idea, and he's still young, right, and you know what happens when you find out, like what your history is is not what you thought it is, but yet but but he has this implicit sense of security because, yeah, since infancy he was raised by the kents yeah so it's an interesting thing on adoption and like, yeah, it's other kinds of things right when you're very different than your parents, right, I don't know, it's an interesting.
Speaker 1:Like it is interesting, I wonder how they're going to carry through that arc there was something you said that I wanted to connect to, I think, with the, the character Rex. If you remember, when Superman was in the Pocket Universe and he was in that part of himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he was like Kryptonite. The guy was, and then the line for that guy of I'm going to basically poison Krypton or, sorry, poison Superman, and then the line of this is too vicious, line of this is too vicious, or this is too much, this is too horrific, and I think something I again I can't remember exactly what you said there, but something you were saying made me think of that, that line of of when it's too much and then it's like forget it, balls out, let's, let's fix this or let's let's go for it no matter what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, that felt kind of significant, and maybe even connecting it to superman, when you as, as individuals, when we're going through these crises of identity and like where's the line of no, I'm going to go this way, I'm going to go this way not that it's just one, but, um, yeah, some of those those questions came to my mind while watching it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think about it from a skill breakdown standpoint, and not only a skill breakdown standpoint, but I think I mean we all work with a lot of moral injury at certain points too as well, when someone's stretched beyond what they normally do and it causes them psychological harm if they go past that point and I think that you know when you think about going too far.
Speaker 3:I think you have to have, I think you have to have some sense of like where too far is for your own internal compass. You have to have some kind of secure attachment to hold on to and say, yep, that's a bit too far.
Speaker 2:And I think when you detach from that core at some point, then you start stretching beyond what you feel is comfortable and you end up hurting yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, the metamorpho character is interesting because, like he's like in the little backstory, people don't know about him, like he has like a wife who's kind of not a metahuman and he, like you know, he looks like, he looks like you know he struggles with that, but he's like one of the few people in the universe that can actually do anything against superman and uh, and he's a good guy, like he's. He's kind of, he's a he's traditionally a blue collar dude who, like he's like, uh, you know, was a security guard or something and that's really what he knows how to do and he's just a kind of a go get it done kind of guy. And he gets trapped in this and then sees lex luther kill somebody in front of him, this like innocent guy and he's just crying. It's like I can't do this, right, right, it's like you're saying, ally, like this threshold was crossed, you know like and you know it's.
Speaker 1:you get to see the sociopathy of lex luther there a little bit too totally and then so that reminded me of the double bind, like of what we do when we're in these traumatic situations, like who we become that's. It's like that's not me, but man, I was trying to survive or protect my kid or whatever, like yeah some really yeah, powerful, powerful questions come up with that.
Speaker 2:Well, and what would we do? If you're a kid, you know like Totally. You know like people are like I, just no, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I don't think so.
Speaker 2:You might really consider like killing Superman for your kid Totally totally.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think that's also you know part of the show when it talks about, like you know, what do you do when you're when the chips are down, what do you do when it's like you're like super uncomfortable, what happens when it's chronic, what happens when it's a situation where you're like, oh, between protecting these? It shows where you're not only where your values are, but it shows like who's in your inner core circle and who really ain't. You know, because I think about that aspect. You know that little question who who gets, who gets rescued first or who gets saved first.
Speaker 2:Listen, you know, bert, I was thinking. This is Ali. I don't know if you watched the Last of Us, but we did. It's a great show and it's a great video game, but it reminds me of the theme of how he makes the choice to kill everybody in the hospital and save her as opposed to Right, and that has repercussions how he makes the choice to kill everybody in the hospital and save her, as opposed to like right, like that's like you know and that has repercussions, you know it continues a cycle of violence and, like you know, it's like a whole these choices we make are are very important.
Speaker 2:You know, I just wanted to put one more theme out here too for you guys. Like you know, I think there's also some stirring too, and I saw this and maybe just because where I'm at my life and just like what's going on in the world and just the intensity of like just things in general. But, like you know, it's like I think people really want a superman of some kind. You know like, yeah, I think there's a, you know there's.
Speaker 2:We want somebody to come in and fix our problems yeah, and I don't think the movie says like he can't anyway right like you know, like he's not going to, like he's gonna stop kaiju and right, right like yeah, yeah, some other things a lego kind of situation, like you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, he's gonna knock he's not gonna come in, he's not gonna like you know he's not going to like you know he's not going to help you with your. You know, like in a relationship, he can barely, he can barely deal with his own. I think, yeah, but we lost your audio, bert.
Speaker 3:oh you can hear me now yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the complexity of it all, like the idea of if you have now, now again, epicurious kind of thought processes, like you know if, if something is all knowing on but unwilling, you know what do we call that thing at that point, I mean if it's omnipotent and omniscient and everything else. I mean like with superman, though I mean, I think that's, I think that's an interesting choice point, though. Allowing folks agency, allowing agency for folks to step through and say actually, no, I'm not going to figure that out for you guys. No, that's a hell of a boundary, I'm not going there with y'all. No, because I think the thing is it's an adult boundary, it's an adult boundary it's an adult boundary.
Speaker 3:It's saying I can't go there with you, I cannot go and figure this out for you. I mean, I think that's the where I end and you begin, kind of stuff. Just because I have the power to do so doesn't mean I step in yeah and I think choosing who gets that kind of reach too as well is really important there are only a handful of people on this planet that I would step in and use like deadly force behind, and two of them live with me.
Speaker 2:You know like that's it.
Speaker 3:That's it, like you know, and that's that's. I think it's important to have that, because then you can have your guiding principles and you won't get pulled away by what someone wants you to do can have your guiding principles and you won't get pulled away by what someone wants you to do For sure.
Speaker 1:And then it helps, you know, cause there are repercussions, there are consequences, and it helps to tolerate the the repercussions that might come or to, you know, not go into anticipatory anxiety too far, Cause you know this is what I, this is the right thing for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a cool way to think of it, it is yeah, I mean, I think, like when superman, like I can only imagine what it would be like, like like that you know, like how a presence like him would make other power feel impotent right which is like I think it's right on, like, if somebody like him happened, like governments freak out, yeah right, like like there would be, like like we are not, the power game completely changes, right, and that's what happens, like you know, with like, when people are feeling like they're really power under right, it's like the like things shift around, right, like, and it's really interesting to see how, just like imagining, imagine that I mean seriously like to imagine like suddenly we have superman, like the entire geopolitical climate would change immediately, like immediately immediately upon, upon rip, immediately.
Speaker 3:I think about like what, what nations and countries would try to do to harness something like that, and you would hope that he has a character structure that's pretty pliable and maybe, yeah, and I think what happens when people, when the power structure is upset, it makes the person at the top of the power grid to like, really look at themselves, or who was, who once was on top of the power power structure, so look at themselves, and oftentimes they project what they would do if they had that kind of unlimited power, which is why people react so strongly, I imagine, to power, just power for power's sake, because power for power's sake isn't bad. It's about power with, or power over, and I think Superman is a damn good example, though, of, like you know, he has power over, but he's using it to empower other people too as well. And you know, I think that's what makes I think that's the core most core differences from power, from, like, the homelanders of the world, the Omnians of the world and Superman.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what makes you wonder, like, do we want rules too? I mean like when we have laws and, like you know, things to protect us from being hurt, supposedly right, like you know. Would we choose, like you know, fuck it Like, just let him do the right thing. And like what know, would we choose, like you know, fuck it Like, just let them do the right thing. And like what's the right thing Right.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean we both know, all of us. You know, working with trauma like what someone's trauma might be, someone's like boundary, I mean like you know what's traumatic, you know what is that even mean, sometimes to someone like you know, like like someone might be like this person's being mean and actually the person's just setting a clear boundary, clear boundary, right person being cruel. Are they? Are they yeah, exactly? Maybe not.
Speaker 3:Maybe they're just saying like listen, like you need to stay there and I'm here and that's okay I think that's, I think that's the the, the movies, the stories, the mythology that kind of like shows up with that kind of stuff is asking a question about moral relativity. It's like you know what is absolute good, what is absolute evil, what does that actually look like? And then does it change based on the situation? Because I think, in terms of like moral development, there's a huge difference between someone who says because I use this example quite a bit when it's like, oh, if I, my, either my daughters, had like a life-saving medicine that they needed to have and I couldn't afford it, would I steal it? I'm like, yeah, without hesitation, is it saving their life?
Speaker 3:absolutely like, done, like no question at all like steal the bike and ask forgiveness later like I ain't got nothing for you. But if I I know I can afford it, would I do it? Yeah, I'd pay for it Absolutely. So finding out like where I think the arc of like a Superman who's a flat moral character for the most part of his existence does make us ask questions of ourselves, because it exposes something within us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3:Hmm, I can see the wheels turning up there.
Speaker 1:They are. I was like there is one direction to go, but I'm like, nah, that's a little bit much, let's go a different one. I was thinking about, like you know it's. I think it's sometimes easier if it's black and white like that. No, it is. Yeah, I'm a good person and here's the good choice versus like Bert, like what you were describing, that complexity of okay, it's not good to steal and yet I need to keep my kid alive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it dashes itself against the rocks of like reality.
Speaker 2:I think, honestly.
Speaker 3:That's probably why superman like like you know ruffles my feathers a bit as a character sometimes, because I'm like superman wouldn't last a day in my neighborhood like, if it was a regular dude, like trying to just be good thing all the time, like good luck, I mean. But I but I think also, I think I just resonate more with characters who have a bit more removed to them, like in terms of like yeah, like it's because it's not effortless, but then again, you know, maybe that shows something within me yeah, probably.
Speaker 2:I mean like all this is sorry, I mean like I just was wrestling with, like you know. I mean you, those of us like us who work with people or have been subjected to like great violence, right, like it's. You know like it's easy to say, well, evil. You know evil's relative right. You know and I say that to somebody who just was, you know, barely got out their life Right exactly. You know like and like you know barely got out their life right exactly. You know like and like. You know it's tough. I mean it's like this, this, the trauma being overwhelmed. You know they creates more overwhelm and creates, you know, like it's like the intersection of, like morality and like you know like, yeah, I mean superman wouldn't as clark kent maybe wouldn't last right who knows?
Speaker 2:we don't know maybe then he?
Speaker 2:then he wouldn't be super, he wouldn't be who he is then too exactly, exactly, he can he can be he, he can afford to be good exactly, exactly, that's it he can like that right but you know those mr terrific on their hand, like you know, just so you guys know his backstory, like yeah, his, his, his wife was killed in a car accident and and that like crushed him right, and so he he's a really interesting character. I just did a deep dive in the comics, mr terrific he's been around for a while. But like he's, he's a cool, he's a cool character and and he's a complex character. He's like they say, he's the third smartest guy in the world. That's like his.
Speaker 2:The tease of him and he and he's like you know, he's like that in the comics, like he's like kind of you know I don't know what it is like traumatized slash, neurodiverse presentations something like that, like super smart, like, doesn't you? Knowdiverse presentations, Something like that, like super smart, Like doesn't you know. It's all kind of like Spock, like but he's very hurt, though that's what's underneath it he's very, very hurt.
Speaker 2:He's very lonely and that and that. I think the character in the movie really gets that in him and what's makes him very compelling. The actor's really good too, so so that's an interesting also he's not.
Speaker 3:He has no superpowers, he's just smart. Yeah, that's right yeah.
Speaker 1:So do you guys remember what made him want to go um help lois lane get superman? Because he wasn't like super interested in it. Initially it didn't seem like, and then the other, what did they call it?
Speaker 2:the justice gang, they, yeah well, I think they made a choice.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're, I think, I don't totally exactly remember all these those, but I think it's something along the lines of what we're talking about is that, like they make a choice to like, kind of do the right thing, like, but you know, I mean, I think they stepped in once they realized that lex luther like behind the country and arming the country, and it wasn't like a like, it became like a company thing and not like a nationalist thing. So they could. That's how they justified it in their writing, which I thought was kind of sneaky.
Speaker 2:But like but it was like that's how they decided to do it, and I think he had some sympathy for Superman, yeah right, I think that's how they decided to do it and I think he had some sympathy for Superman, yeah Right, I think that's what happened. Like he was just like oh well, we're going to do it, like I moved to do it.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's. It's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1:It is yeah, I think of that with what is going on in the world and it is. It is like what moves people to finally act or finally speak up or finally and yeah, I guess that's each person's individual decision but what pushes them over the threshold of it's too scary or too whatever to to find, or I can't.
Speaker 3:It's not an option to be silent, so yeah yeah, interesting I think that's part of it, probably too that I've seen, like it's either it's too much of a moral quandary to not say something or there's I have to speak for myself, like if it involves my kiddos behind me, like there's only a. That list of things I wouldn't do to make sure they're okay is very, very short. That list of things I wouldn't do to make sure they're okay is very, very short. Um, so it's, I think, and you know, like yeah, I think one is a dad, like as a dad is just one of those things.
Speaker 3:I was like no, no, seriously. Like yeah, I would do whatever it is to make sure they're okay, but at the same time, though, too as well. I mean, I'm sure somebody can come with some, some philosopher can come with a quandary, a moral quandary for me to sit down and sit with, like ooh, what would you do in that situation? I don't know, like I don't know, but I think that's going back to what you said about Superman and the capacity, the capacity to be good.
Speaker 3:I really do wonder about his nervous system as a whole and like what actually makes him, what allows him to be able to choose the right moral option consistently right?
Speaker 2:well, I think lois has something to do with that too.
Speaker 1:Let's talk lois, I loved her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was a great character yeah she has the self-declared punk rocker right with the like you know, I. They're like. I guess the equivalent of somebody grew up listening what was like. It's like maybe like I don't know, some like milk toast band, you know, like like that's that you know superman's boring, you know, like that's his whole thing.
Speaker 2:He's like he's kind of like he, he induces, he induces ire and he induces jealousy and he induces evil, because he's such an archetype. That's why I think to me also, the anti-Superman is more interesting to me, but there can't be an anti-Superman without a Superman. We see this, this happens all the time in working with people Like it's like. You know, we see this, this happens all the time in working with people, right? Like somebody, anybody, who like moves to like idealization of anything, it will always swing back the other way, right right, it's an avoidance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's an avoidance of the reality of that. We're actually mixed about most things.
Speaker 3:Most things yeah. We have some aspects of like our existence. There are limits to how far you go, there are things where you will not act, there are places where you freeze up, and I think that's the idea of having a flawed hero has more gravitas to me, because I'm like, yeah, I like that idea that Spider-Man doesn't always get it right. Spider-man has things he regrets.
Speaker 2:He actually rarely gets it right. Realistically he always get it right. Spider-man has things he regrets.
Speaker 3:He actually rarely gets it right.
Speaker 2:Realistically he always gets it right. Yeah, like he's really a mess in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 3:But I like that idea. But I do love the idea of them putting Superman in all these different situations where you know, I mean I remember back in man of Steel the reaction spoiler alert for you know 16 year old movie Good Lord that was 16 years ago when he kills General Zod at the end of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's, but that's also like the Zack Snyder like version which is so dark, yeah, dark and brooding Superman Right. But.
Speaker 3:I think that's. But I think that thought process of like what are the limits of a Superman? Like what is the point to where his goodness falls apart, where does that go? You know, what does he do when he's put in a moral quandary, in a situation?
Speaker 1:Right, that's funny now that, because I'm thinking, burr, about what you said about you know we're all three of us parents and that's been a really organizing principle for me, morally, and I'm thinking about, like Lois Lane for Superman, it organized him as an adult for this kind of with the complexity. Because she balances the complexity well, she gets it. Whereas he's like it's so good Gosh.
Speaker 2:I know like I just get it because it's the right thing she's like it's not that simple. Yeah, yeah, like you clearly didn't think this through right like at all like that monologue with that, that dialogue between them, and it's like he's making a good point. Like you, idiot. Like you haven't thought this through at all, have you?
Speaker 1:yeah, like and I thought that's a good point. And then he got really flustered and really like, and she's like what is it like not interviewing yourself?
Speaker 2:I know exactly.
Speaker 3:Real it was cool.
Speaker 2:Well, we are up on our 30 minutes, which is way beyond the natural listening time of most people listening to things. That's right, that's right, but let's do it again. There's more here, I think, like uh, um, those of you are interested, there's also a. Uh, let me just give you guys some a little, some resources of anti-superman. There is another um, there's a new. If those of you interested in uh, some of the um, if those of you interested in uh, some of the um, like some of the new comics and stuff or stuff out there, there's a.
Speaker 2:There's a great new book called the power fantasy, which is really interesting and it has a great premise of like, there's like five people who have like the ability to destroy everything in the world, like and and it's just about that. It's a great. It's a really great book. Um and uh, there's about 10 issues from image comics and uh, it's really good and they kind of explore this in a little different way. They take in a good, a good, uh, let's see who's the author of that. I face, oh, it's uh, karen, gillian and casper winnegard, right and uh, and they're great, great writers and artists. And uh, and also those of you have not read or watched, the boys, the boys is a great anti-superman hero and anthony star is like it's quite tragic that he didn't win an emmy, really actually really he should
Speaker 2:have won for this last season. He's amazing, I mean. They're all pretty good, but he's a standout. And there's other things and those of you who haven't watched Invincible it's a very heartfelt, well-written comic and also a really well-written TV show that takes like two years in between seasons, but it's still yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:But there's a lot, some good stuff out there as a contrast to um, and those are the juno diaz article, also the watchman, like, like um alley, like you mentioned. Uh, who's watching the watchman, which is an alan moore comic which really stirred up this whole thing. If you haven't read that graphic novel, it's worth the read. Very different than the movie, um, the ending's different, actually, um and uh. And there's other others out there um, uh, all-star superman, which is also mentioned in that article, which is a great uh kind of uh, what happens when? Uh, or whatever happened to the man of tomorrow. They mentioned that those are great things of like what happens if Superman dies or just like fades away, and there's some other things. So some good stuff out there for those of you interested in working with polarities because that's, I think, what we're talking about here and archetypes, yeah, and Superman's a resource. Where is he? Anyway, I know to be continued. And Superman's a resource. Where is he? Anyway, I know to be continued, to be continued.
Speaker 1:Okay, thanks, allie thanks for having me good to see your faces, yeah we'll do this again soon.
Speaker 2:Bert and I we like having guests. We haven't had a guest in a while it's been a minute.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've been yakking away for a while.
Speaker 2:So right's been a minute. We've been yakking away for a while. Okay, bye, everybody, thank you Bye.