Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
Sneaky Powerful is a podcast that explores the journey of healing from trauma. Through the perspective of Somatic Experiencing®, a naturalistic modality of trauma healing developed by Dr. Peter Levine, Ali Capurro and her guests explore the process and intricacies of reclaiming vitality. Within these artful conversations there are many threads, and specifically threads of hope, healing, and love.
Sneaky Powerful - A Podcast Dedicated to Somatic Experiencing®
18 - Design and Healing with Somatic Experiencing®
What happens when architectural design meets Somatic Experiencing®? Hannah Milks takes us on a fascinating journey through her work as a trauma-informed designer who applies nervous system knowledge to the pieces of clothing we wear to the spaces we inhabit.
Hannah's path began unusually—with a graduate thesis on trauma-informed police buildings. This exploration led her to question not just how trauma affects people, but how spaces could actively support healing. While completing her SE™ training, Hannah developed a unique perspective that blends architectural concepts like "prospect and refuge" with somatic understanding of how bodies naturally regulate.
The conversation explores practical applications of this work, from simple interventions (like adding air filters to therapy offices) to locating retreat spaces in Costa Rica specifically for caregivers learning to receive support. Hannah shares how architectural elements can create pendulation experiences similar to what happens in SE™ sessions—allowing bodies to move between feelings of safety and expansion in ways that support healing.
In this episode, we also dive into somatic journaling, a practice Hannah developed that helps individuals explore and care for their own nervous systems. Using writing prompts designed with titration and pendulation in mind, participants explore their relationship with their bodies while tracking sensations rather than getting lost in stories.
Most compelling is Hannah's perspective on space as an extension of relationship. From the chairs we sit in to the air we breathe, our environments aren't neutral backgrounds but active participants in our well-being. By understanding how bodies want to heal, we can design spaces that support that process—translating the wisdom of the body into the language of architecture.
For more information about Hannah, you can follow her on Instagram @CleverBabesCo. You can also explore her website at cleverbabes.co.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Sneaky Powerful Podcast. My name is Allie Capero and I'm so glad you're here. Today's guest is Hannah Milks. Hannah is a queer somatic experiencing practitioner and trauma-informed designer. You can follow her on Instagram at CleverBabesCo, and her website is Clever Babes Co and her website is cleverbabesco. We had a really fun conversation about design, trauma, life and retreats in Costa Rica. I hope you enjoy. Hey Hannah, welcome to the Sneaky Powerful Podcast. It's so good to have you here.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes, I have never met you in person, but I feel like, seriously, from people that go to Kansas City to do trainings, they always come back talking about either your designs or you, so I'm really excited to get to know you. That's really sweet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kansas city has a really tight knit SC community. It's really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I can't yeah Someday I do, I hope to yeah You'll have to come assist with us. Yep, it's really fun. So my first question that I wanted to start with today is I was curious about you said earlier in the pre-call that you studied architecture. So anything you want to tell us about how you transferred from pure to somatic experiencing would be cool to hear.
Speaker 2:So when I started the training I was in graduate school studying architecture and my thesis was on trauma informed design. So my mom is actually a trauma therapist, sap and her and I growing up we loved decorating and I think we both just intuitively really knew how much space impacts how you feel. And so I decided to study that for my thesis and from that I was like I want to know how people heal from trauma. Like you can know all the terrible things trauma does to your body, but like how do they heal from it and how do we design space around that?
Speaker 2:So I got a scholarship from K-State to start beginning one and I honestly I had no idea like if it would work. I just knew like in my bones that I was supposed to be at the training. I had seen my personal therapist was an like SE therapist but I was pretty new with her. So I had like kind of just started doing my own personal work and I was doing all this research academically about trauma and I was like this is where I need to be and I didn't originally think I would actually finish. I was like, oh, I'll just do the first year.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But then I got to training and loved it. I was like, oh, this really does something for me. This is where I'm supposed to be, so it was really interesting. This is where I'm supposed to be, so it was really interesting. Actually, like I joke that I learned more about trauma in architecture school and more about creativity at drama school, because the like culture of design school is very disembodied, okay. And so then when I came to SE and it was so embodied, like my creativity really shifted and it's with me.
Speaker 1:Yes so it was just really interesting how my perspective of everything changed once I started so you did you complete your thesis and then decide okay, as far as like career path. Then what did you do next?
Speaker 2:So after I graduated, I well, so I graduated in May of 2020. In May of 2020. So rough time to be looking for a job. I ended up getting a job because I had like started the SE training. I ended up getting a job at a like organization here that has a school-based outreach program teaching emotion regulation skills oh my gosh, to kindergarten and first graders, which was a wild jump, but I've always loved education like. My job in college was a substitute teacher awesome, I used to be a teacher.
Speaker 2:I love it. Yeah, I've always loved education and it just kind of popped up and I tried it out and I learned that I am not a change from within person.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:I am not cut out for that.
Speaker 1:Immediately in my brain I went to oh yeah, hence the whole like design your space. So yeah, yeah, tell me. Or maybe if you could put more words to that, I would love to hear more about that um specifically like not a change from within.
Speaker 2:Yes, so you know, being in the like education system in mid pandemic, a lot of really heightened nervous systems and I was, like you know, kind of recovering from my own educational experience, that was a very heightened state all the time of just constant output and yeah I, I just was like, ooh, this is, you know, cause once you start the SE training you can't ignore your body anymore.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And I was like Ooh, I don't. Ooh, this isn't right. And it was at the time when many people were unemployed because of COVID and the like. Print on demand t-shirt industry was born, so you could like send off your t-shirt to spines and someone else would print it off. And I was like you know what? Because at that time there was like no mental health merch. I feel like it's kind of a thing now, but at the time there was none.
Speaker 2:I agree and I was like I could do that and that's actually how I got my business clever babes co started was it was like, uh, comfortable clothes for an uncomfortable world and just trying to help people be a little more comfy in their body with a you know, super soft sweatshirt with rest was productive on it and it was just like fun.
Speaker 2:I was still being creative and designing and like having this SE lens. So that is how Clever Babes started, but I was still doing the SE training. So now I have the product side of my business and I have the service side of my business where I do the somatics and the SE work that I do is predominantly group work. I think of it as, since I started training with this lens of like applying SE to a whole community, because when you're building a building's for thousands, well, like my thesis specifically was on police buildings and space where the public and the police interact. So I was looking at the Kansas City like headquarters building. So that's how I rationalized that I got into groups specifically. But I just love group work.
Speaker 2:I started my first group since all these things were happening during the pandemic. I have a close friend who's a nurse and her job was so hard Like it was crazy during the pandemic. So my first like SE group was actually with nurses and trying to give them like the basic nervous system regulation skills that se teaches and I was. My goal was that they would like have the skills to kind of co-regulate with each other on the floor, like so that it's not because, when you're experiencing like trauma multiple times a day, like you can't wait till next week where your therapist is available. You need some nervous system regulation like readily available.
Speaker 1:And can I jump in right there and you don't even know that you need that necessarily? Yes, no, you're like or for me it was like I'm just freaking out or I can't see what's happening. Yes, but from. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:So a lot of things just kind of all happened with experimentation and being like okay, there's this need available, like, and I know how to fill it, like I'm in this training Right, and so that is what started the like groups, part of my work, okay, and that all kind of happened at the same time as the product side of my business, that's helpful, because I was thinking for the listeners.
Speaker 1:Maybe if you could talk about cause. I know I follow you on Instagram, which is how I've gotten to know a little bit more about what you offer, and one of the things that I've been meaning to sign up for that I haven't yet is your online journal.
Speaker 2:Kind of somatic journaling. Yes, yes, yes, my favorite.
Speaker 1:OK. So yes, someday I'll be, I'll be involved in that, but maybe if you could share briefly, like what's available for people, group work, wise or coastal. So yes, so okay.
Speaker 2:So I started with the nurses and I found out that scheduling with nurses is impossible, fair, but I loved it. It was really fun. So that turned into somatic journaling, which is really just like applying the lens of tracking to your journaling. So we're, I teach it as Pearl, because I don't want to steal intellectual property from SEI, but really we're I'm teaching tracking Saibam um, while you're journaling.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And so I run this group. I haven't ran it for I never know how to say this like for normal people who aren't therapists.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 1:Civilians? No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's why I'm like I don't know how to say it and I've ran it like five times now with therapists. Okay, just like really coming in with the kind of like basic somatic education, that's yeah, that's fair a way to discern, yeah yes, and also for somatic practitioners.
Speaker 2:Um, practicing se as like a self-care skill instead of a lens of supporting your clients and other people. It like how do we use this to be compassionate and supportive to ourselves, which is very different than how we're taught to use SE. So I love that group. It is so fun.
Speaker 1:I love that too. I love what you're, how you're describing that, and even as you say that can, I don't know. I just am so curious. So I was wondering if, like we took a couple minutes say that can, I don't know. I just am so curious. So I was wondering, if, like we took a couple minutes, what would that even look like? A sample size of that? Yeah, you and I are journaling. What would you maybe invite me to do? Or yeah.
Speaker 2:so since this podcast is for se people, I'll pull out some of my se terms. The prompts are titrated, so we're like just working with kind of little pieces at a time and then, um, there's some pendulation happening. You know, we're starting with feeling good in our body and then dipping in and feeling a little more and we leave feeling good, um, but really the prompts are to keep your frontal lobe busy, give it something to think about. So one of the questions I ask is um, does your body trust you? So then we would have some of the prompts are five minutes to journal, some of them are 10 some time. And then, um, once, there is time to share with the group.
Speaker 2:But when I ask it's like what, what came up for you as you were journaling? I'm not really asking about the content of what you wrote about. I'm asking, like, how did it feel to write about that? Oh, I love it. Did the 10 minutes feel too long or too short? Like is, is your nervous system like going at such a fast rate that 10 minutes feels like forever? Yes, and just really trying to get people to notice that like, yes, there is the story, and once we kind of put that we get it on paper, put that to the side, we can deal with what is showing up in our bodies in that moment, and then we have all this information about the needs we have that aren't being met, about boundaries that we haven't set, and from there we can actually do something with the information, instead of kind of like you know how we get stuck in oh, my gosh story so it's like we, you know we give our frontal lobes the opportunity to say stuff and write it down, and then we sit with our body.
Speaker 1:Because our frontal lobe, like ego, is like listen to me, listen to me, let me talk. Like, no, let me do my job. Yes, Brilliant Hannah, that is I really like that format and structure. That is I really like that format and structure. And, yeah, bringing in these concepts from Essie, like titration and pendulation, it's cool because not only let's see, it's useful, in my opinion, for every level of somatic experiencing, even if you don't know about somatic experience or somatic work, even if you don't know about somatic experience or somatic work. And then, like you said, how to care for our own selves as practitioners, because it's it's sometimes automatic and sometimes easy to do and oftentimes not. So I very much appreciate all of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I love it. It's like so great for me because I journal like with everyone, Like it's, I'm right there with you and it's funny, even if it's a prompt. I've journaled about five times like something new shows up every time. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:I'm like, okay, see, I wrote this prompt and it's still surprised me, I bet, and well, I guess the synchronous kind of thought that came in for me was like, yeah, because that's the beauty of presence and being in the moment and being aware of what's happening and, yeah, the shifting nature of yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just what I love about I mean I call it like somatic self-care. So with somatic journaling is it's like it's so much of just meeting yourself where you're at. So it's like somatic journaling is a self-care tool that you'll be able to use in any phase of your life, right like if you're going into parenthood or if you're like grieving a big loss, like it's so flexible right, but it can like really grow as your life changes yeah, which is nice.
Speaker 1:It is nice. I am trying to kind of track a little bit of what I'm noticing, even as you talk about it, and there is within this moment, I can just feel a real sense of slow expansion and capacity and hopefulness that like, oh, that's right, these are these ways that we can get through and process things when, especially when they feel so stuck sometimes or, yes, hard to access or I don't know what I'm feeling, which is sometimes where I land.
Speaker 2:I know it's like and I I think this is what I love about working with therapists and coach like the caret the supporters is. It's like okay, I'm so good at offering this to other people. Yes, and I know all SVPs have to do like their personal sessions and stuff, but there's always a need for support for the supporters.
Speaker 1:Always I was laughing in my head when you said that about nurses. I happen to work connect it currently as a therapist in a hospital, medical and so when you said it's hard to get nurses to, their schedules are so wild, and then I was laughing, thinking and nurses they are, they're such incredible characters, characters, that's not. I blended things in my brain caregivers and I was thinking of I didn't want to be stereotyping anything, but I've seen, you know how there's this real commonality of putting themselves not first, not second not third.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it's fascinating. So, okay, you kind of mentioned Costa Rica. I hosted a retreat in January in Costa Rica. It was called the Radical Self-Care Retreat, and we had several SE therapists, we had an eating disorder dietician and we had a nurse, and so all people's whose nervous systems default is giving and receiving can be uncomfortable and also unsafe when your nervous system is like giving and giving and giving all the time, and so it was really about how do I receive support in a way that actually feels safe to my body?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, that's so cool.
Speaker 2:And it's so, like so many of us who want to help other people and have made that our professions and our livelihood, it's like interesting about. It's like okay, well, well, when you were a kid, like where did these things start? About receiving, like how often, so often it's like we, as a kid, didn't get to receive without an expectation tied to it, and so now our nervous system is like kind of contracts in anticipation of the expectation, and so it's just fascinating to work with nervous systems whose default is giving which is yeah.
Speaker 2:So I kind of fell into that, but I I love it. I love supporting the caretakers. It was really fascinating.
Speaker 1:It is fascinating and I the whole like I feel like we could spend two more hours talking about how the the receiving piece and, okay, cognitively maybe I'm like, yeah, I, I'm ready, I want to receive, but somatically my body's like absolutely not, fuck, no, stay away from me. And the disconnection and sometimes unawareness. So, again hopeful, and I really love that. Thank you, I did. I wanted to ask a question because I am so in love. I love architecture, don't know very much about it, but I really love it as like the idea behind all of it. I'm like I love it. So, as you're talking and I thought about Costa Rica and I guess I was like, hmm, what would you say? Or why would you? Why did you decide to host a retreat in Costa Rica?
Speaker 2:I'm sure there's logistical reasons, but from the like trauma well, it's actually because the only reason it was in Costa Rica is because of architecture, because I was so specific about the place that we all stayed Like. I knew what I wanted in my mind, and so I looked at Airbnbs all over the world literally all over and I picked Costa Rica because of the.
Speaker 2:I found a house that was big enough for all of us to stay in. I had a table that was big enough for all of us to sit around. It was up kind of like on this mountain in the jungle but had a view of the ocean Like I. We ended up in Costa Rica because of the house, because I am very picky about design.
Speaker 1:Well, even what you're saying, would it be okay? I don't want to give away any of your retreat information or anything but I'm totally curious about like well, when you said, okay, a view of the ocean, and then, but then also the house being in a jungle, I thought of contraction and expansion, or cause. Sometimes contraction is is safe and still safe and it's necessary, is safe and still safe, and it's necessary and so, anyway, I was curious what you would say about those pieces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think the SCU terms are contraction and expansion. The architectural terms, like from my thesis that I would use for that, is prospect and refuge, which, um, refuge is like a contraction. Um, you think of it as kind of like being in a cave, almost, yeah, where you can see out, but you are like sheltered and, okay, supported and safe. Another way to think of prospect and refuge is like if you picture an African savannah and there's like the one big shade tree and there's the cheetah mom with her cheetah cubs like laying in the shade. They like have something kind of anchoring them, but then they can see out across the whole absolutely okay.
Speaker 1:like, can I bring in like a PTSD? Like oftentimes I'll work with people who you know have to have their back to. They can see the windows and the door, okay, and that's the refuge, or the concept of refuge or yes.
Speaker 2:So the being kind of nestled on the hillside in the jungle is the refuge, and then prospect is like the area where things are going on. So for me that's like looking out at the ocean and there's the people on the boats doing the things or, um, you know, like when you're sitting in a restaurant and you're tucked in a booth, that's the refuge, and then all the tables out in the middle in the open would be okay. The rep, the prospect.
Speaker 1:Sorry, and I'm invited. Nope, I'm totally getting it. And I'm thinking about, like the people listening right now, tracking your own nervous systems, because I'm thinking about how some people, when they hear being in the middle of a restaurant, are probably like oh my gosh. No, I hate that because I got my own system like no, I want to be tucked in a corner well, I feel like everyone loves the booths, right, like everyone prefers a booth.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, and I it's like psychologically. I think prospect refuge theory is from an architectural standpoint, because you're just kind of nestled in.
Speaker 1:I did not. I it makes so much sense, but I've never heard of these terms for like specifically attached to architecture. Um, and really quick because of my own curiosity how does that work If you're building some sort of like trauma informed building? Or yeah, did it come up in your thesis? It?
Speaker 2:did so. It's funny like how like vocabulary heavy SE is and design is, and like making those two have a baby is funny. But I designed the space so that, um so in design we call it circulation, which is how you circulate or move through a space. Um so I designed the circulation to pendulate people in and out of the refuge, which is again where, like understanding trauma, healing is going to create a very different spatial experience than just understanding trauma. Yes, because if I didn't understand, like there's so many natural processes in the body towards regulation that space, I feel like can mimic, mimic. Have you heard of biomimicry in design?
Speaker 1:at all. Give me an example, because it sounds really familiar, but I'm not.
Speaker 2:It's just like trying to build artificial things, how nature, yes, builds and constructs things, yes. So biomimicry is kind of like a buzzword. And again this, this research is now five years old, but at the time biomimicry was a huge thing and it's like how do we 3D print stuff that mimics the way that? This is so. But I was looking at biomimicry how does our body naturally organize itself towards regulation and can I mimic that in the built environment?
Speaker 1:oh my gosh, like I'm so thrilled. Right now this is a little bit different, but my a couple friends of mine have done either like cob houses or straw bale houses yeah, and I know it's not the same thing but just being surrounded by more natural material in space. I've been in the spaces and there's a somatic difference in my experience. And what you're talking about is like oh my gosh, build me a house, hannah. Or I mean design it, not build it. I'd love to, oh my gosh, build me a house, hannah or I mean design it, not build it.
Speaker 1:I'd love to. It would be. I feel like to go on a little rabbit trail Cause sleep. Because of some of the trauma I've had, sleep is really challenging and my brain is relaxed sometimes, especially like in a new place. My body's going to do some trembling or, as it settle, and I might wake up and or feel real disoriented. Um, and I'm just thinking about how, if I had this really supportive space it's kind of an emotional piece of it like it feels like oh, it would just be so supportive and settling.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And hearing you even talk about it like building. You know, let's see if I can use some of the words you used. You said focusing on circulation to pendulate people. Yes, and I don't understand it. But I also am like, yes, this makes so much sense.
Speaker 2:You know, I wish I would have come prepared with the diagrams that I made that like explain how you're you could tell the work for me.
Speaker 1:I am like here for this, it's so funny.
Speaker 2:It's like it's so much more fun to talk to SE people about my thesis. Like people in architecture were like safe, I bet do you mean like why would I literally? Someone said to me why do you care about how people feel? And I was like I don't even know how to begin.
Speaker 1:I'm in the wrong place, as like a pathological empath. It's like wait.
Speaker 2:I don't understand how you can not yeah, I think some people get stuck in that it's like well, yeah, like, for example, when you're designing a school and there's going to be a thousand people in it. But it's to me it's like but I'm not necessarily concerned about how each individual person feels, or I think something that was really different about my research than other research on trauma-informed design that I've seen is it's like I'm not trying to avoid traumatizing people although hopefully not, but I can't possibly know.
Speaker 1:Predict yeah, absolutely what I?
Speaker 2:can do is understand how our bodies want to feel and how they want to heal and think about that. Yeah, that moves us in a much better direction, that we can actually do more with man. So it's just interesting attitudes and right things you come up against in such a disembodied culture Like exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yes, I absolutely agree with that, Gosh. Okay, so architecture might not be what you wanted to talk about this whole time, so I wanted to make sure you know I I love talking about it with people who get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Well and actually this is good I've been thinking about like my thesis was something I kind of had to put away like personally for a couple years, just because of my experience in school and, like you know, trying to be an embodied person in, when you're around a bunch of disembodied people, it's just really hard. But recently I've been thinking like, oh, I should make a workshop or something for therapists on how to design their offices.
Speaker 1:So love it.
Speaker 2:I'm actually glad this is coming up. I'm like this is confirmation from the universe that I'm on the right track absolutely, yes, yes, I.
Speaker 1:I think that that is um knowing. Yeah, because you know the structural technical things that, yeah, the average person isn't probably gonna know, and or the average therapist, and yeah, that's a cool idea. Okay, sign me up for that too. I'll be your wait list.
Speaker 2:Can I give my like one freebie about trauma-informed design? This is so funny.
Speaker 2:It's like I think sometimes people think trauma-informed design is this big thing, and my number one tip is to get an air filter and put it in your office, because clean air has a very significant like. There's been a lot of research on educational environments and having clean air really improves educational outcomes, so I would assume in healing environments it would too, and so often when we're in these like big buildings, the air filtration is just not great. Yeah, and it makes sense from a nervous system perspective that clean air would make your body feel safer and give you more access to your frontal lobe. So my one like freebies okay.
Speaker 2:Put an extra air filter in your office and just have really nice clean air.
Speaker 1:Okay, that sets me up for a perfect how are we doing on time, we're doing good, a perfect kind of pathway to talk more about.
Speaker 1:So I was thinking about even before we started, because I usually sit more at a desk when I do these interviews and for some reason I was like I really want to be comfortable, so I'm literally sitting on my bed and I have pillows behind me, and so what you're saying really is significant, because air would be, unless it's obvious, like we get a lot of fires over here out in the Northwest almost Pacific Northwest People say in Idaho we're not really the Northwest, but I'm like, well, but yeah, we get a lot of forest fires, especially this time of year.
Speaker 1:Right now we're pretty good, but so the air is really stressful because it's so thick with smoke times and I it does tend to give me anxiety and part of it, I think, is a real primal response to oh my gosh, my body's stressed right now because of air, even if it's not a conscious awareness of that, and so I wanted to talk a little bit more and whatever you want to say about this is is just the importance, because we learn in SCF put yourself in a comfortable position put yourself. You know, set yourself up to be comfortable, and it provides your system with support and a little more ease, which I'm the person that's eating dinner with half my ass off the chair. I'm the person that's eating dinner with half my ass off the chair. Can I get whatever? You know, especially when the girl, my daughters, were younger, it was like, okay, what does everyone need? And that's not a good way to digest food. So anything that maybe you want to speak about, about that from your wise, so trying to think it's like furniture.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting. I did get to take a couple semesters in furniture design and it was super fun, just like kind of a fun se design. I see design crossover moment is thinking about containment. Yes, and it's like yes, I see we do a lot of emotional containment, but as a designer, it's like the clothes you wear is a layer of containment. Thinking about the furniture as a layer of containment.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Can be really interesting Thinking about the building as a layer of.
Speaker 2:As can be really interesting. Thinking about the building as a layer of containment can be really interesting. But, just yeah, is the chair you're sitting in physically comfortable? Like, does it meet your need for physical comfort? And really taking that seriously, sometimes it's really just that simple. But sometimes I feel like, especially in therapy offices, where it's really just that simple. But sometimes I feel like, especially in therapy offices, where it's like, well, you work in an agency and you have to, oh my god, figure out how to make the furniture they give you work and it's like 100. Are you sitting in your client chair for an hour? Right, how it feels. Like, do you have options available? Like, if, like, do you have a floor pillow if someone wants to sit on the floor and if that chair isn't comfortable to their body, what other options are available?
Speaker 1:um, I'm trying to think, but yeah, it's really just as simple as, like, comfort is really important actually yeah, I think that, as you said, that I was thinking about what kind of chair would I design for, because being contained in a chair feels really cool, the idea of wrapping, or right, like I like those egg chairs yeah, oddly, I've never even sat in one, which is kind of silly. But um and we're like a hammock, that kind of like hugs. You are those, and what's your preferred chair?
Speaker 2:just for fun I'm a I'm a big floor person, okay, I what you like for I don't know, I've heard online this is like a neurodivergent thing, um, but I love to sit like crisscross, like sitting in a chair. For some reason it's not natural to me like my legs need to be crossed in some way. So I personally love a floor pillow so I can cross my legs and like kind of have a pillow behind me to like lean against a wall right that is like I preferred, but otherwise a chair that's big enough I can cross my legs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, that's what I need.
Speaker 1:yeah, I like that because I, like you know, I in your trainings. I don't know if this came up, but, um, it was like sometimes it would be like, okay, put your feet on the ground if you're in a chair, and kind of, but then the invitation was also there and if you want your legs cross, you know, let let them be and notice the grounding or the heaviness of one leg on top of the other, and yeah yep, that makes sense to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, it's design is so interesting. I think it's like, yeah, what feels good to your body, and also just thinking about space as an extension of the relationship, like does do you have like pictures of your favorite places on the wall, or like you know? I think it's like you can tell a lot about a person by the books on their shelf, or yeah. So it's like, does the chair feel comfortable? And also does it kind of like fit your vibe?
Speaker 1:Do you have an office?
Speaker 2:Do you or do you work? I don't have an office right now. I either do my groups virtually or I like find spaces?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like Costa Rica, for example. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like really cool Airbnb is in Costa Rica. Yes, Like hopefully one day I will but Is that a goal? I was going to say I don't even know if you need to, but Well, like my dream would be to design like a retreat space, like either find a big house and renovate it, or I would love to find like an old motel and like renovate that, or something like, just because when you, when it's more like hospitality, like more like a hotel, I feel like that's really fun design, yes, um, but then there's a lot of things, like specifically for retreats, that it's like I need a private space for everyone to meet and sit and journal together, and like at a hotel, there's the lobby space but it's not private.
Speaker 2:So it's but. And then it's like so then then in the houses, but sometimes it's not big enough for everyone to fit comfortably.
Speaker 2:Thinking about that with the one in Costa Rica, yeah, so it's like just trying to get things just right for all the different things you need for retreat, um, and then that it's like fun and it's a vacation. So you get to be, you know, designed with a little more color and a little more pattern and texture, like I don't know, people are so worried about resale value and I'm like but is it fun Exactly? Do you like to be in the space Like, does it bring you joy?
Speaker 1:How do you and how do you know I love that Like. Would you even know? Yes, how do you and how do you know? I love that like? Do we even know? Yes, yeah, yes, are we just doing what we think?
Speaker 2:yeah, like you said, resale or something, yeah, and it's like well you've lived in this house for 15 years and right made decisions about who's gonna own it after you for all 15 years, like right. That doesn't make any sense to me, but people do it.
Speaker 1:I'm sure I've done something like that. No, it's so true, and it's like come on, suck the juice out of life. Let's uh, let's enjoy it. Yeah, like, when's your next um retreat? When are you having your next one? Do you know? Is it scheduled so?
Speaker 2:my next one isn't scheduled but, um, it's gonna be in la fortuna, costa rica, which is there's a volcano there, oh my god, and tons of hot springs. So it's like up in this mountain, you like literally drive through clouds to get there. It's like the most magical, moody, mystical place. And Quinn, who I host my retreats with, she's a shamanic practitioner and an herbalist, okay, so she does like drum journeys and Oracle card readings and, um, fun stuff. And then we kind of mash it with Essie, which makes Essie look very scientific right.
Speaker 1:Which is hilarious because that's not how anyone thinks of Essie, right?
Speaker 2:Um, but we're thinking about from the radical self-care retreat and how uncomfortable receiving is. That made us think about our relationships with our moms and how there's like this mother wound of being a mom and being expected to give and give and give and not receive. And so many of us grew up with moms who couldn't say no when they needed to, didn't know how to ask for support, and even if you offered, couldn't receive it. And so there's like this figure that's this nurturing figure that also holds a lot of resentment, because moms are just expected to give without limits and even if you know you have your relationship with your mom or your relationship to mothering, or just like kind of looking at all the levels of how even we're talking about how mother earth is exploited for resources right, endlessly gosh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know like on all these different levels, right, um? So it's going to be like moody clouds, hot springs, mother wound, but I don't have a date gotcha is it?
Speaker 1:does it matter? Does gender matter? Is everyone welcome, do you? How does that work?
Speaker 2:so we tend to work with like women and femmes. So non-binary is great. Trans women are definitely welcome like women, but in the most inclusive sense of the term. Um, but yeah, we, we like to get the ladies together. It's really special, but in my other groups it's open to anyone but, um, I think there's a sense of safety that comes with being a group of all women and that's fair. Yeah, and you know the mother wound.
Speaker 1:This looks very different in men than it does in women right and actually in, if there's people that there's a lot of other, not a lot, there's a couple other groups, men's groups specifically, that if anybody wanted to reach out to me that's curious, I could offer information about that. Yes, yes, yeah, I'm thinking of one in particular, but yeah, that's, that makes sense. I like the use the words again to describe the Costa Rica retreat mystical. You said a couple of words that I'm like, oh, I'm vibing, like moody, mystical like hot springs, but rainy like yeah, it's kind of the perfect.
Speaker 2:We're going to the perfect place for a mother wound retreat. It matches the.
Speaker 1:The location matches the vibe so if I was thinking about I had this situation I was just on vacation and I had this situation that I was witnessing I wasn't a part of. I was just on vacation and I had this situation that I was witnessing. I wasn't a part of it. I was just witnessing some people I love a lot, but the mother wound was a part of it and hearing you talk about it I felt some sadness and that because I was thinking if they would have known or, when we know about, we have awareness of what's going on. We can at least try to communicate needs or communicate I receive this or I want help, but I can't ask. You know we don't. It's not doing it perfectly and I was thinking how it can interrupt or even end relationships unnecessarily. Yeah, and it's like damn, that's so frustrating and sad, but it's cool to hear the work that you're doing.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's all fun. It is fun, you know I totally know I don't like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people are like wait, you're taking time off from work to go to work and like yeah, I'm like yes, yes, um. So if we have like five, three to five minutes left, is there anything else you make you want to make sure to share with our, our audience, our listeners, or?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think.
Speaker 1:I know that's a lot of pressure. I don't mean to put pressure, Mostly I just wanted to give you a chance to say anything about you that we didn't get to talk about. So you still know. Are you closing the product side of your business? Did I see that?
Speaker 2:I will be closing it. When I'm in Costa Rica, I won't be mailing out orders Okay, but I'm not leaving Rica, I won't be mailing out orders, okay, um, but that's not. I'm not leaving until the 20th, so there's still some time I have some really fun okay, so August 20th you'll be in Costa Rica and product shipping side will be closed, but I will still be. I'm gonna launch a somatic journaling group soon. I'm okay, working on all kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Definitely the best place to keep up with me is Instagram or on my website you can sign up for emails and when I launch anything new I email that list. I promise to not spam with email marketing. I only send out emails like when there's something crossed off my to-do list very often oh my gosh, a to-do list.
Speaker 2:I lost mine, yeah so Instagram is definitely the best place to keep up with me and I like to share about you. Know, I I still, I have I still see my same yeah, somatic therapist every other week. I talk about my own healing. Yeah, design, somatic stuff, all the things.
Speaker 1:I still see my some a somatic therapist. I didn't have one in the early part of my, or the first part of my healing journey. Um, actually, yeah, I'm so grateful that I found somatic experiencing at all and hearing how you're, like you said, mashing together. Um, I think you were talking about Quinn when you talked.
Speaker 1:Talked about it but yeah, together, se and architecture um, just how it can kind of interweave with so many different things and aspects of our lives. Truly, there's been a ton of things that I want to talk more about. I love to do this again, I'm super down, super down with that. I'm super interested in that. Otherwise, um, we'll wrap up for today and I'll say thank you very much for taking this time and I literally will see you in one of your upcoming journaling groups yes, the therapists yay, but yeah, thanks Hannah thank you so much.
Speaker 2:This was so fun good.